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> In all seriousness mushrooms COULD be conscious There is a fungus [0]. that takes over a carpenter ant's brain and makes it climb up plants and clutch on to

> In all seriousness mushrooms COULD be conscious There is a fungus [0]. that takes over a carpenter ant's brain and makes it climb up plants and clutch on to a leaf with it's jaw and hang down from it. The fungus then sprouts the fruiting body from the dangling ant and spreads its spores. As an armchair theorist, anything that can interface with a brain and coordinate a nervous system to produce complicated movement has to be capable of computation at some level. [0]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis#Natural_products https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis#Na...

uoaei 5y ago
Premise 1: Any arbitrary 4D volume in spacetime (i.e., one connected component wrt physical interactions) can be considered a system. Premise 2: https://xkcd.com/505/ https://xkcd.com/505/ Conclusion: Every system, open or closed, is computational in a certain rigorous sense of implementing dynamics along the space dimensions (versus inputs, via transformations, into outputs) and demonstrating dynamics along the time dimension (flux of the energy+information carried through its constituent parts). If we can create a "computer" using rocks in a binary-ish encoding, surely we can implement "computers" in more efficient encodings that utilize certain properties of physical reality. We as humans began to approach this with mechanical computers using complex linkages, but only got so far before we decided on digital (binary) encoding and then enshrined that in silicon. To be sure, binary is a very effective way of organizing computation given our physical implementation(s), but most likely there are way more efficient ways of doing things. One fascinating direction we are beginning to explore to achieve more efficient computation is marrying machine learning with materials engineering![1] In fact, by this conclusion, we can only believe that the universe is merely the most efficient way to simulate itself, but this by no means precludes the possibility of simulating it in any other medium (encoding). [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04223-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04223-6
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Aardwolf 5y ago
Armchair theorist as well, but all consciousness aside, it could also be that there's just a simple chemical that makes ants want to climb up (just like some hormones make the human brain want things), so that there's no computation involved, the mushroom might just happen to excrete the right chemical in the right place
- arrosenberg 5y ago
  That seems more likely to me too. Imagine a fungus that could provide dopamine directly to the brain when a human host meets a certain condition (e.g. a certain amount of direct sunlight, humidity, wind).
  - everhard_ 5y ago
    Agree, it's more like they're responding to stimuli, could we derive somehow that their genes have evolved some degree of ... intelligence?
    - arrosenberg 5y ago
      Eh, I'd say that's a point for debate, but I would argue stochastic survival probability under some prior conditions that haven't changed enough to force further competition.
  - monkeybutton 5y ago
    Like toxoplasmosis?
  - dunefox 5y ago
    I mean, apparently toxoplasmosis or something like it can result in personality changes even in humans.
  - stadium 5y ago
    Not exactly this scenario, but the psilocybe genus produces chemicals very similar to serotonin.
- 5y ago
colechristensen 5y ago
People tend to underestimate the ability of very simple systems to result in complex behavior. It is entirely possible that this ant hijacking is entirely done though a few very simple manipulations of the existing ant nervous system and more likely than a much more complex fungal brain replacement.
- mrtnmcc 5y ago
  I always figured it made the ant feel it is about to drown, so it seeks high ground instinctively.
- itissid 5y ago
  Speaking of ants https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/ant-colony-optimization#:~:text=An%20overview%20of%20the%20rapidly,major%20algorithms%2C%20and%20current%20applications https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/ant-colony-optimization#:~:te....
- th3o6a1d 5y ago
  Agree with above statement. Occam's razor. Tons of examples of complex behavioral changes centered around exposure to single substance. THC --> munchies! Alcohol --> saying dumb things at parties. I'll bet there is a fungal chemical that disrupts the ant's spacial orientation, and absent of other stimuli, it may have a default program that causes it to seek higher ground.
- journey_16162 5y ago
  Something like in Toxoplasmosa. It's just a random product of evolution, nothing computational. > The life cycle of the parasite Toxoplasma gondii goes like this: Toxoplasma reproduces inside the intestine of a cat, which sheds the parasite in its feces. Rats then ingest the parasite when they consume food or water contaminated with cat feces. The parasite takes up residence in the rat’s brain and, once the rat gets eaten by a cat, it starts the cycle all over again. > Researchers have known for a few years that a rat infected with Toxoplasma loses its natural response to cat urine and no longer fears the smell. And they know that the parasite settles in the rat’s amygdala, the part of the brain that processes fear and emotions. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-parasite-that-makes-a-rat-love-a-cat-86515093/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-parasite-t...
gigaflop 5y ago
If fungus has a language, it means we can 'talk' to it. So long as we can put electricity in, and get different electric signals out, we have a sort of interface. If they're sentient, then wow, great. If not, we can probably work out the right signals and species to use in growing a mushroom-based Turing machine.
- nerdponx 5y ago
  It's not quite "computation", but apparently you can wire a mushroom up to a modular synthesizer and get something resembling music out of it. Someone has a very entertaining YouTube channel full of this content: https://www.youtube.com/c/MycoLyco https://www.youtube.com/c/MycoLyco. The titles are great too, like "Reishi Talks To Lions Mane About Life In a Bag" (posted 4 days ago).
meetups323 5y ago
> computation at some level Unfortunately that term applies to basically everything... computation at every classical level we know only requires "maybe have state, maybe update state in response to environment, maybe move to new environment based on new state, maybe repeat".
PartiallyTyped 5y ago
We have quite a bit of evidence that our gut bacteria influence our long term actions and behaviour through neurotransmitter precursors.
axiom92 5y ago
Cool video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vijGdWn5-h8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vijGdWn5-h8

uoaei 5y ago

Premise 1: Any arbitrary 4D volume in spacetime (i.e., one connected component wrt physical interactions) can be considered a system. Premise 2: https://xkcd.com/505/ https://xkcd.com/505/ Conclusion: Every system, open or closed, is computational in a certain rigorous sense of implementing dynamics along the space dimensions (versus inputs, via transformations, into outputs) and demonstrating dynamics along the time dimension (flux of the energy+information carried through its constituent parts). If we can create a "computer" using rocks in a binary-ish encoding, surely we can implement "computers" in more efficient encodings that utilize certain properties of physical reality. We as humans began to approach this with mechanical computers using complex linkages, but only got so far before we decided on digital (binary) encoding and then enshrined that in silicon. To be sure, binary is a very effective way of organizing computation given our physical implementation(s), but most likely there are way more efficient ways of doing things. One fascinating direction we are beginning to explore to achieve more efficient computation is marrying machine learning with materials engineering![1] In fact, by this conclusion, we can only believe that the universe is merely the most efficient way to simulate itself, but this by no means precludes the possibility of simulating it in any other medium (encoding). [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04223-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04223-6

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Aardwolf 5y ago

Armchair theorist as well, but all consciousness aside, it could also be that there's just a simple chemical that makes ants want to climb up (just like some hormones make the human brain want things), so that there's no computation involved, the mushroom might just happen to excrete the right chemical in the right place

arrosenberg 5y ago
That seems more likely to me too. Imagine a fungus that could provide dopamine directly to the brain when a human host meets a certain condition (e.g. a certain amount of direct sunlight, humidity, wind).
- everhard_ 5y ago
  Agree, it's more like they're responding to stimuli, could we derive somehow that their genes have evolved some degree of ... intelligence?
  - arrosenberg 5y ago
    Eh, I'd say that's a point for debate, but I would argue stochastic survival probability under some prior conditions that haven't changed enough to force further competition.
- monkeybutton 5y ago
  Like toxoplasmosis?
- dunefox 5y ago
  I mean, apparently toxoplasmosis or something like it can result in personality changes even in humans.
- stadium 5y ago
  Not exactly this scenario, but the psilocybe genus produces chemicals very similar to serotonin.
5y ago

colechristensen 5y ago

People tend to underestimate the ability of very simple systems to result in complex behavior. It is entirely possible that this ant hijacking is entirely done though a few very simple manipulations of the existing ant nervous system and more likely than a much more complex fungal brain replacement.

mrtnmcc 5y ago
I always figured it made the ant feel it is about to drown, so it seeks high ground instinctively.
itissid 5y ago
Speaking of ants https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/ant-colony-optimization#:~:text=An%20overview%20of%20the%20rapidly,major%20algorithms%2C%20and%20current%20applications https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/ant-colony-optimization#:~:te....
th3o6a1d 5y ago
Agree with above statement. Occam's razor. Tons of examples of complex behavioral changes centered around exposure to single substance. THC --> munchies! Alcohol --> saying dumb things at parties. I'll bet there is a fungal chemical that disrupts the ant's spacial orientation, and absent of other stimuli, it may have a default program that causes it to seek higher ground.
journey_16162 5y ago
Something like in Toxoplasmosa. It's just a random product of evolution, nothing computational. > The life cycle of the parasite Toxoplasma gondii goes like this: Toxoplasma reproduces inside the intestine of a cat, which sheds the parasite in its feces. Rats then ingest the parasite when they consume food or water contaminated with cat feces. The parasite takes up residence in the rat’s brain and, once the rat gets eaten by a cat, it starts the cycle all over again. > Researchers have known for a few years that a rat infected with Toxoplasma loses its natural response to cat urine and no longer fears the smell. And they know that the parasite settles in the rat’s amygdala, the part of the brain that processes fear and emotions. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-parasite-that-makes-a-rat-love-a-cat-86515093/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-parasite-t...

gigaflop 5y ago

If fungus has a language, it means we can 'talk' to it. So long as we can put electricity in, and get different electric signals out, we have a sort of interface. If they're sentient, then wow, great. If not, we can probably work out the right signals and species to use in growing a mushroom-based Turing machine.

nerdponx 5y ago
It's not quite "computation", but apparently you can wire a mushroom up to a modular synthesizer and get something resembling music out of it. Someone has a very entertaining YouTube channel full of this content: https://www.youtube.com/c/MycoLyco https://www.youtube.com/c/MycoLyco. The titles are great too, like "Reishi Talks To Lions Mane About Life In a Bag" (posted 4 days ago).

meetups323 5y ago

> computation at some level Unfortunately that term applies to basically everything... computation at every classical level we know only requires "maybe have state, maybe update state in response to environment, maybe move to new environment based on new state, maybe repeat".

PartiallyTyped 5y ago

We have quite a bit of evidence that our gut bacteria influence our long term actions and behaviour through neurotransmitter precursors.

axiom92 5y ago

Cool video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vijGdWn5-h8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vijGdWn5-h8