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My trick with their system is to just look at every car, click through to the final receipt screen and then go back to find the cheapest one. It's a bit tedious

My trick with their system is to just look at every car, click through to the final receipt screen and then go back to find the cheapest one. It's a bit tedious and deceptive to the customer to present variable fee at the last part of the checkout process. Probably the worst modern "dark pattern" that I hope regulators take a look at.

forgotmysn 5y ago
I share your sentiment, but I'm not sure there are any legislators I trust to understand or regulate dark patterns effectively.
- car_analogy 5y ago
  I believe advertising a false price is already illegal. "On the internet" doesn't change that, so afaik no new legislation is needed, only some minimal will to enforce what is already on the books.
- mindslight 5y ago
  Despite the shiny new veneer created by computers, this is a very old dark pattern called "fraud". While there are definitely shortcomings and failures of regulators, I'd say we're better off expecting them to generally crack down on fraud rather than not.
- Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
  Dark patterns in general, yes, but I'd think "The displayed price must include all fees" would be easy to write into law.
  - ARandomerDude 5y ago
    I think people would find ways to partially skirt the law using formulas. There are some legitimate uses for formula pricing, e.g., rent a U-Haul with a per-mile cost, or a cell phone bill with a per GB data cost, or a per-user SAAS model. I imagine a dark pattern for the "resort fee" might be a complicated formula described in words in size 6 font at the bottom of the page if you took the time to read the footnote.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  Really? They sure successfully nailed airlines on the practice a decade ago. [1] It doesn't take a world-leading regulator to say "it is an unfair and deceptive business practice not to list the total price in a search result." I think a regulator may be able to handle this one. [1] https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/buying-ticket https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer...
  - ghaff 5y ago
    For all the (somewhat legitimate) cracks about airline add-on fees for things like checked baggage (for non-status flyers), airlines are actually one of the better travel categories in terms of fully disclosing costs up front. Hotels and car rentals generally will before you press the confirm button but often don't up-front--and this makes comparison shopping difficult because the patterns aren't consistent.
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      Definitely, because they were super forced by the DOT under 49 U.S. Code § 41712. [1,2,3] [edit to include text:] The Department considers any advertising or solicitation by a direct air carrier [...] that states a price for such air transportation [...] to be an unfair and deceptive practice in violation of 49 U.S.C. 41712, unless the price stated is the entire price to be paid by the customer to the carrier... [...] Although charges included within the single total price listed (e.g., government taxes) may be stated separately or through links or “pop ups” on websites that display the total price, such charges may not be false or misleading, may not be displayed prominently, may not be presented in the same or larger size as the total price, and must provide cost information on a per passenger basis that accurately reflects the cost of the item covered by the charge. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparent_Airfares_Act_of_2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparent_Airfares_Act_of_20... [2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/41712 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/41712 [3] https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.84 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.84
- rodonn 5y ago
  DC is currently suing Doordash for this sort of deceptive pricing arguing that it violates existing laws. https://www.npr.org/2022/03/22/1087988691/washington-d https://www.npr.org/2022/03/22/1087988691/washington-d
- tyrfing 5y ago
  https://www.adlawaccess.com/2022/02/articles/dark-patterns-a-new-legal-standard-or-just-a-catchy-name-part-one/ https://www.adlawaccess.com/2022/02/articles/dark-patterns-a... https://www.adlawaccess.com/2022/02/articles/dark-patterns-a-new-legal-standard-or-just-a-catchy-name-part-two/ https://www.adlawaccess.com/2022/02/articles/dark-patterns-a... Marriott has settled a lawsuit over similar pricing "dark patterns": https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Hotel-News/Marriott-settles-resort-fee-lawsuit https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Hotel-News/Marriott... > Among other provisions, the agreement requires Marriott to prominently disclose the total price of a hotel stay, including room rate and all other mandatory fees, on the first page of its booking website as part of the total room rate. Seems to mainly be a matter of enforcement, it's probably worth contacting your state AG with something deceptive like this. Hard to expect them to take action on something they don't know about!
  - forgotmysn 5y ago
    Ya, I have much more faith in the courts to discern fair deployments of dark patterns than I do any legislative body.
  - Kon-Peki 5y ago
    As everyone already knows, a large percentage of "major brand" hotels are owned and operated independently (like a franchised restaurant, for example). If you ever get a Marriott that tries to add fees that you didn't expect, call up corporate Marriott and complain about a violation of their legal settlement regarding hidden fees. They will absolutely lay the hammer down on the hotel and you'll end up with credits far in excess of the attempted hidden fee ;)
- not2b 5y ago
  "Understand" in the sense of the Upton Sinclair quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Or, in this case, his/her campaign contributions.
- Adrox 5y ago
  It's actually illegal in Europe (EU) to NOT display the final price, and the price shown on the search in Airbnb or airline searches is the final price. Specially because in EU all the prices shown in stores/everywhere is the final price, with VAT, service, tip, etc, etc...
  - SnowHill9902 5y ago
    What if the final price depends on your entity status as a purchaser? E.g. delivery city, whether you are a business or an individual. Taxes and shipping trivially depends on that.
    - newaccount74 5y ago
      The website needs to include VAT in the price if they sell to consumers, and can show prices without VAT if they sell only to businesses. VAT depends only on country, so that is not as difficult to calculate as sales tax in the US. Some companies (eg. Alternate) have different websites for consumers and business customers, other companies (eg. Conrad) allow you to toggle between pricing modes (with tax or without). The price is usually shown without shipping, but there's usually a little button "calculate shipping prices" where you can type your zip code and then they show the shipping prices.
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    Is that for properties in EU or when you book from EU?
- ryandrake 5y ago
  "Not knowing the price of something until it's time to pay for it" is about as American as apple pie. From retail stores, where shelf prices don't show tax, to your cellphone/cable bills with a half dozen opaque fees added on to the quoted monthly rate, to the hospital, where literally nobody providing the service knows what it will end up costing. Good luck getting rid of this mentality--it's permanently baked into our business and consumer cultures.
- throwmeariver1 5y ago
  It’s primarily a US problem if you don’t trust them let them copy and paste it from somewhere else…
crooked-v 5y ago
The same happens with hotels and "resort fees", especially in places like Las Vegas.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  This is one area America needs to legislate which I am usually against. There is no excuse but sleezy marketing to not show what something costs. I'd go far even to make sure every price sticker is regulated and should include final sales price. That means, all taxes, all tips, everything. There is only one problem I see – sales taxes are state dependent so it puts a lot of burden on ecommerce/online stores to 1) Determine where the customer is from 2) Have a database of sales taxes for all states. But it can be done, I am sure. Tips should be made illegal and employers should fairly compensate their workers.
  - stonemetal12 5y ago
    Sales tax is worse than state dependent, they are city dependent.
    - ianmcgowan 5y ago
      State, county, and city - and separate "transit" taxes for county and city. And then most locations have a use tax which may be different from the sales tax. It sounds complicated, but I had to work on a project in India during the GST transition, and came to appreciate the relative simplicity of the US system.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    >> Tips should be made illegal That's about as dystopian as possible. Telling people that they cannot just hand money to other people might be the end of the entire concept of charity.
    - mbrodersen 5y ago
      Most of Europe operate just fine without tips.
dzhiurgis 5y ago
Ryanair has been dicked a decade ago by this in EU

forgotmysn 5y ago

I share your sentiment, but I'm not sure there are any legislators I trust to understand or regulate dark patterns effectively.

car_analogy 5y ago
I believe advertising a false price is already illegal. "On the internet" doesn't change that, so afaik no new legislation is needed, only some minimal will to enforce what is already on the books.
mindslight 5y ago
Despite the shiny new veneer created by computers, this is a very old dark pattern called "fraud". While there are definitely shortcomings and failures of regulators, I'd say we're better off expecting them to generally crack down on fraud rather than not.
Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
Dark patterns in general, yes, but I'd think "The displayed price must include all fees" would be easy to write into law.
- ARandomerDude 5y ago
  I think people would find ways to partially skirt the law using formulas. There are some legitimate uses for formula pricing, e.g., rent a U-Haul with a per-mile cost, or a cell phone bill with a per GB data cost, or a per-user SAAS model. I imagine a dark pattern for the "resort fee" might be a complicated formula described in words in size 6 font at the bottom of the page if you took the time to read the footnote.
arcticbull 5y ago
Really? They sure successfully nailed airlines on the practice a decade ago. [1] It doesn't take a world-leading regulator to say "it is an unfair and deceptive business practice not to list the total price in a search result." I think a regulator may be able to handle this one. [1] https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/buying-ticket https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer...
- ghaff 5y ago
  For all the (somewhat legitimate) cracks about airline add-on fees for things like checked baggage (for non-status flyers), airlines are actually one of the better travel categories in terms of fully disclosing costs up front. Hotels and car rentals generally will before you press the confirm button but often don't up-front--and this makes comparison shopping difficult because the patterns aren't consistent.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    Definitely, because they were super forced by the DOT under 49 U.S. Code § 41712. [1,2,3] [edit to include text:] The Department considers any advertising or solicitation by a direct air carrier [...] that states a price for such air transportation [...] to be an unfair and deceptive practice in violation of 49 U.S.C. 41712, unless the price stated is the entire price to be paid by the customer to the carrier... [...] Although charges included within the single total price listed (e.g., government taxes) may be stated separately or through links or “pop ups” on websites that display the total price, such charges may not be false or misleading, may not be displayed prominently, may not be presented in the same or larger size as the total price, and must provide cost information on a per passenger basis that accurately reflects the cost of the item covered by the charge. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparent_Airfares_Act_of_2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparent_Airfares_Act_of_20... [2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/41712 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/41712 [3] https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.84 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.84
rodonn 5y ago
DC is currently suing Doordash for this sort of deceptive pricing arguing that it violates existing laws. https://www.npr.org/2022/03/22/1087988691/washington-d https://www.npr.org/2022/03/22/1087988691/washington-d
tyrfing 5y ago
https://www.adlawaccess.com/2022/02/articles/dark-patterns-a-new-legal-standard-or-just-a-catchy-name-part-one/ https://www.adlawaccess.com/2022/02/articles/dark-patterns-a... https://www.adlawaccess.com/2022/02/articles/dark-patterns-a-new-legal-standard-or-just-a-catchy-name-part-two/ https://www.adlawaccess.com/2022/02/articles/dark-patterns-a... Marriott has settled a lawsuit over similar pricing "dark patterns": https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Hotel-News/Marriott-settles-resort-fee-lawsuit https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Hotel-News/Marriott... > Among other provisions, the agreement requires Marriott to prominently disclose the total price of a hotel stay, including room rate and all other mandatory fees, on the first page of its booking website as part of the total room rate. Seems to mainly be a matter of enforcement, it's probably worth contacting your state AG with something deceptive like this. Hard to expect them to take action on something they don't know about!
- forgotmysn 5y ago
  Ya, I have much more faith in the courts to discern fair deployments of dark patterns than I do any legislative body.
- Kon-Peki 5y ago
  As everyone already knows, a large percentage of "major brand" hotels are owned and operated independently (like a franchised restaurant, for example). If you ever get a Marriott that tries to add fees that you didn't expect, call up corporate Marriott and complain about a violation of their legal settlement regarding hidden fees. They will absolutely lay the hammer down on the hotel and you'll end up with credits far in excess of the attempted hidden fee ;)
not2b 5y ago
"Understand" in the sense of the Upton Sinclair quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Or, in this case, his/her campaign contributions.
Adrox 5y ago
It's actually illegal in Europe (EU) to NOT display the final price, and the price shown on the search in Airbnb or airline searches is the final price. Specially because in EU all the prices shown in stores/everywhere is the final price, with VAT, service, tip, etc, etc...
- SnowHill9902 5y ago
  What if the final price depends on your entity status as a purchaser? E.g. delivery city, whether you are a business or an individual. Taxes and shipping trivially depends on that.
  - newaccount74 5y ago
    The website needs to include VAT in the price if they sell to consumers, and can show prices without VAT if they sell only to businesses. VAT depends only on country, so that is not as difficult to calculate as sales tax in the US. Some companies (eg. Alternate) have different websites for consumers and business customers, other companies (eg. Conrad) allow you to toggle between pricing modes (with tax or without). The price is usually shown without shipping, but there's usually a little button "calculate shipping prices" where you can type your zip code and then they show the shipping prices.
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  Is that for properties in EU or when you book from EU?
ryandrake 5y ago
"Not knowing the price of something until it's time to pay for it" is about as American as apple pie. From retail stores, where shelf prices don't show tax, to your cellphone/cable bills with a half dozen opaque fees added on to the quoted monthly rate, to the hospital, where literally nobody providing the service knows what it will end up costing. Good luck getting rid of this mentality--it's permanently baked into our business and consumer cultures.
throwmeariver1 5y ago
It’s primarily a US problem if you don’t trust them let them copy and paste it from somewhere else…

crooked-v 5y ago

The same happens with hotels and "resort fees", especially in places like Las Vegas.

systemvoltage 5y ago
This is one area America needs to legislate which I am usually against. There is no excuse but sleezy marketing to not show what something costs. I'd go far even to make sure every price sticker is regulated and should include final sales price. That means, all taxes, all tips, everything. There is only one problem I see – sales taxes are state dependent so it puts a lot of burden on ecommerce/online stores to 1) Determine where the customer is from 2) Have a database of sales taxes for all states. But it can be done, I am sure. Tips should be made illegal and employers should fairly compensate their workers.
- stonemetal12 5y ago
  Sales tax is worse than state dependent, they are city dependent.
  - ianmcgowan 5y ago
    State, county, and city - and separate "transit" taxes for county and city. And then most locations have a use tax which may be different from the sales tax. It sounds complicated, but I had to work on a project in India during the GST transition, and came to appreciate the relative simplicity of the US system.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  >> Tips should be made illegal That's about as dystopian as possible. Telling people that they cannot just hand money to other people might be the end of the entire concept of charity.
  - mbrodersen 5y ago
    Most of Europe operate just fine without tips.

dzhiurgis 5y ago

Ryanair has been dicked a decade ago by this in EU