5 ms·

Sex work is consensual, doesn't target anyone, does not create a victim, doesn't diminish anyone else's rights, so why would it be comparable to hate-mongers be

Sex work is consensual, doesn't target anyone, does not create a victim, doesn't diminish anyone else's rights, so why would it be comparable to hate-mongers being de-platformed?

commandlinefan 5y ago
> consensual, doesn't target anyone, does not create a victim, doesn't diminish anyone else's rights Neither does tweeting that you won a presidential election but here we are.
- sleepdreamy 5y ago
  What about starting a failed insurrection? Can we relate that to sex workers as well?
- pfisch 5y ago
  If it culminates in plans to end democracy it does.
  - henriquez 5y ago
    If an election is rigged and an entrenched Deep State installs a fake president then wouldn’t that also end democracy?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
mlindner 5y ago
The argument isn't if it's a good or bad thing. It's just pointing out that hypocrisy is going on. If the basis of your argument is JUST that companies can do whatever they like because they're not the government and don't have to follow free speech rules, then you can't turn around and say that they shouldn't be able to do whatever they like in some other situation. The point being made isn't that this is okay behavior. The point being made is that people should be honest with why they're against or for something rather than pretending to appeal to some more basic moral/political/civic reason. (The deeper point is that some on the left and on the right are okay with censorship/deplatforming/refusal of service in specific situations because it was only happening to the people on "the other side". When in reality these are universal negatives and absolutely WILL be applied to your side as well once they become the norm.)
colpabar 5y ago
So, in this instance it's bad because it's happening to people you don't dislike?
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  Yes?? Humans have preferences and think some things are good and some are bad.
  - ohCh6zos 5y ago
    Counterpoint. Because sex work is bad for once big tech is doing the right thing.
    - qualudeheart 5y ago
      The worst cases of sex work are those in which the sex workers are forced into it by human traffickers. Wether consensual sex work is good or bad, it’s clear to me that discriminating against victims of human trafficking is a terrible idea. Those people need to be saved from their abusive circumstances. Using the panopticon to ban them from everything only hurts them more.
    - zasdffaa 5y ago
      It certainly can be, but some people do it by choice, and like it, and make good money from it. That's not wrong in my books.
  - colpabar 5y ago
    Fair enough, but if that's your stance, I hope you're honest and open about it. I am not claiming you personally have done this, but so many people immediately jump on the private company defense when someone they dislike is deplatformed, when they really just don't like that person and are glad it happened.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      I think the main problem is that many people fail to distinguish actions that are bad, and actions the government should prevent. There is a big difference between saying "This is bad and this company should stop doing it" and "This is bad and the government should step in". This is made worse, because most people don't even bother to propose a solution and just say "this is bad!" leaving others to fight over the implications of the incomplete thought.
coding123 5y ago
> does not create a victim Isn't that massively debatable? Even if you find someone that says yeah I want to do this - what in their background/life story pushed them into that and made it what they "want"
- rendall 5y ago
  > Isn't that massively debatable? Of course! Anything is massively debatable, if you want to be unreasonable enough about it. I've had discussions with people who were on the pro side of the "slavery debate", which is a thing apparently, and then tell me off using woke language to stay in my lane. But, yes, all anti-sexwork positions must begin and with the premise and insist that the sexworker does not really have agency. Not really a reasonable perspective, no matter how cleverly you try to twist it.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 5y ago
  I have difficulty following this argument. It seems to me that if I were to apply this to myself that I would appear as a victim of "math work", where I have a background / life story that pushes me to "want" to do math.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  By that definition, basically every person on the planet is a victim. I am a victim of my middle class upbringing that made me want to be highly compensated and do white collar work.
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  The same could be said of plenty of other jobs. Does your waiter "want" to serve you food? Does your office's janitor "want" to clean toilets? If we adopt the position that workers who do their work because they need to earn a living are victims, then huge swaths of the economy - perhaps the majority of workers - are victims.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
pen2l 5y ago
The casual characterization of sex work as a victimless phenomenon is a mistake we better not make. Prostitution and sex work is often rooted in poverty: https://dspace.wlu.edu/bitstream/handle/11021/34747/RG38_Woodward_Poverty_2020.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y https://dspace.wlu.edu/bitstream/handle/11021/34747/RG38_Woo... I especially dislike this unthinking and unconsidered memeing of sex work because it only serves to normalize the profession and has a net-deleterious effect on society.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  >Prostitution and sex work is often rooted in poverty Work that alleviates the hardships of poverty is a good thing. This is a positive good, not a mark against sex work. Same with other low skill jobs with low barriers of entry.
- standardUser 5y ago
  I know many sex workers and every one of them would tell you to stop spreading this kind of negative propaganda.
  - pen2l 5y ago
    I'd rather that your sex worker acquaintances spend their energy surveying the existing body of academic literature on the subject than to make pleas to me. Not trying to be snarky here, and I'm not mounting a defense for complete prohibition of prostitution and the varying types of sex work, I'm just terrified by the increasing acceptability of the work in common society: I want little girls to have engineers and doctors as role models instead of being prodded into sex work by virtue of its encroaching and increasing presence and exposure, a trade that obliges (commonly) the woman to invest their time pleasing men, a trade that has diminishing returns overtime as they age. Leaving aside the mountain of studies that pinpoint poverty as root of most sex work the continents across the globe and related psychological issues brought on by the experiences later on, if you cannot accept earlier-stated premise, then I reckon we come from differing views and further debate on this forum on this subject will likely be fruitless.
everybodyknows 5y ago
I'm now recalling the case of a woman of my acquaintance who developed a sexually-transmitted disease after her husband patronized a sex worker. Is that not to become a victim?
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  The same situation happens with non-compensated infidelity. Does it follow that Tinder victimizes people because people use it to cheat on their partners, some of which consequently transmit diseases?
  - slibhb 5y ago
    No but it follows that cheating is wrong...just like prostitution. edit - the intense support for prostitution on HN (mostly computer programmers) will never cease to make me smile.
    - Manuel_D 5y ago
      Sure, infidelity is wrong - regardless of whether it's with a sex worker or in a normal relationship. But it doesn't follow that the former is wrong, across the board. The idea that sex work is wrong because someone could commit infidelity with a sex worker is as non-sensical as claiming bars are immoral because someone could cheat on their spouse with a partner they meet at a bar.
    - interator7 5y ago
      How? Cheating is, well, cheating on your implicit agreement with your spouse/partner. Prostitution, when done correctly, is a consensual agreement between two people. Essentially, there's no case in which cheating is not "wrong." There's many where prostitution isn't.
    - mariusor 5y ago
      Maybe you're blinded by your biases. It's not necessarily support for prostitution that you see (with all the seedy implications that your edit makes) but support for any person to have autonomy of their body in whichever way they see fit, including making a living by selling access to it to other people. The only side of sex work which is "wrong" and should be vilified, are the abuses that are prevalent in our society due to its illegality. Morality is not universal, so yours has no more value than anyone else's.
azth 5y ago
> does not create a victim It does.

Sex work is consensual, doesn't target anyone, does not create a victim, doesn't diminish anyone else's rights, so why would it be comparable to hate-mongers being de-platformed?

commandlinefan 5y ago

> consensual, doesn't target anyone, does not create a victim, doesn't diminish anyone else's rights Neither does tweeting that you won a presidential election but here we are.

sleepdreamy 5y ago
What about starting a failed insurrection? Can we relate that to sex workers as well?
pfisch 5y ago
If it culminates in plans to end democracy it does.
- henriquez 5y ago
  If an election is rigged and an entrenched Deep State installs a fake president then wouldn’t that also end democracy?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

mlindner 5y ago

The argument isn't if it's a good or bad thing. It's just pointing out that hypocrisy is going on. If the basis of your argument is JUST that companies can do whatever they like because they're not the government and don't have to follow free speech rules, then you can't turn around and say that they shouldn't be able to do whatever they like in some other situation. The point being made isn't that this is okay behavior. The point being made is that people should be honest with why they're against or for something rather than pretending to appeal to some more basic moral/political/civic reason. (The deeper point is that some on the left and on the right are okay with censorship/deplatforming/refusal of service in specific situations because it was only happening to the people on "the other side". When in reality these are universal negatives and absolutely WILL be applied to your side as well once they become the norm.)

colpabar 5y ago

So, in this instance it's bad because it's happening to people you don't dislike?

s1artibartfast 5y ago
Yes?? Humans have preferences and think some things are good and some are bad.
- ohCh6zos 5y ago
  Counterpoint. Because sex work is bad for once big tech is doing the right thing.
  - qualudeheart 5y ago
    The worst cases of sex work are those in which the sex workers are forced into it by human traffickers. Wether consensual sex work is good or bad, it’s clear to me that discriminating against victims of human trafficking is a terrible idea. Those people need to be saved from their abusive circumstances. Using the panopticon to ban them from everything only hurts them more.
  - zasdffaa 5y ago
    It certainly can be, but some people do it by choice, and like it, and make good money from it. That's not wrong in my books.
- colpabar 5y ago
  Fair enough, but if that's your stance, I hope you're honest and open about it. I am not claiming you personally have done this, but so many people immediately jump on the private company defense when someone they dislike is deplatformed, when they really just don't like that person and are glad it happened.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    I think the main problem is that many people fail to distinguish actions that are bad, and actions the government should prevent. There is a big difference between saying "This is bad and this company should stop doing it" and "This is bad and the government should step in". This is made worse, because most people don't even bother to propose a solution and just say "this is bad!" leaving others to fight over the implications of the incomplete thought.

coding123 5y ago

> does not create a victim Isn't that massively debatable? Even if you find someone that says yeah I want to do this - what in their background/life story pushed them into that and made it what they "want"

rendall 5y ago
> Isn't that massively debatable? Of course! Anything is massively debatable, if you want to be unreasonable enough about it. I've had discussions with people who were on the pro side of the "slavery debate", which is a thing apparently, and then tell me off using woke language to stay in my lane. But, yes, all anti-sexwork positions must begin and with the premise and insist that the sexworker does not really have agency. Not really a reasonable perspective, no matter how cleverly you try to twist it.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 5y ago
I have difficulty following this argument. It seems to me that if I were to apply this to myself that I would appear as a victim of "math work", where I have a background / life story that pushes me to "want" to do math.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
By that definition, basically every person on the planet is a victim. I am a victim of my middle class upbringing that made me want to be highly compensated and do white collar work.
Manuel_D 5y ago
The same could be said of plenty of other jobs. Does your waiter "want" to serve you food? Does your office's janitor "want" to clean toilets? If we adopt the position that workers who do their work because they need to earn a living are victims, then huge swaths of the economy - perhaps the majority of workers - are victims.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

pen2l 5y ago

The casual characterization of sex work as a victimless phenomenon is a mistake we better not make. Prostitution and sex work is often rooted in poverty: https://dspace.wlu.edu/bitstream/handle/11021/34747/RG38_Woodward_Poverty_2020.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y https://dspace.wlu.edu/bitstream/handle/11021/34747/RG38_Woo... I especially dislike this unthinking and unconsidered memeing of sex work because it only serves to normalize the profession and has a net-deleterious effect on society.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
>Prostitution and sex work is often rooted in poverty Work that alleviates the hardships of poverty is a good thing. This is a positive good, not a mark against sex work. Same with other low skill jobs with low barriers of entry.
standardUser 5y ago
I know many sex workers and every one of them would tell you to stop spreading this kind of negative propaganda.
- pen2l 5y ago
  I'd rather that your sex worker acquaintances spend their energy surveying the existing body of academic literature on the subject than to make pleas to me. Not trying to be snarky here, and I'm not mounting a defense for complete prohibition of prostitution and the varying types of sex work, I'm just terrified by the increasing acceptability of the work in common society: I want little girls to have engineers and doctors as role models instead of being prodded into sex work by virtue of its encroaching and increasing presence and exposure, a trade that obliges (commonly) the woman to invest their time pleasing men, a trade that has diminishing returns overtime as they age. Leaving aside the mountain of studies that pinpoint poverty as root of most sex work the continents across the globe and related psychological issues brought on by the experiences later on, if you cannot accept earlier-stated premise, then I reckon we come from differing views and further debate on this forum on this subject will likely be fruitless.

everybodyknows 5y ago

I'm now recalling the case of a woman of my acquaintance who developed a sexually-transmitted disease after her husband patronized a sex worker. Is that not to become a victim?

Manuel_D 5y ago
The same situation happens with non-compensated infidelity. Does it follow that Tinder victimizes people because people use it to cheat on their partners, some of which consequently transmit diseases?
- slibhb 5y ago
  No but it follows that cheating is wrong...just like prostitution. edit - the intense support for prostitution on HN (mostly computer programmers) will never cease to make me smile.
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    Sure, infidelity is wrong - regardless of whether it's with a sex worker or in a normal relationship. But it doesn't follow that the former is wrong, across the board. The idea that sex work is wrong because someone could commit infidelity with a sex worker is as non-sensical as claiming bars are immoral because someone could cheat on their spouse with a partner they meet at a bar.
  - interator7 5y ago
    How? Cheating is, well, cheating on your implicit agreement with your spouse/partner. Prostitution, when done correctly, is a consensual agreement between two people. Essentially, there's no case in which cheating is not "wrong." There's many where prostitution isn't.
  - mariusor 5y ago
    Maybe you're blinded by your biases. It's not necessarily support for prostitution that you see (with all the seedy implications that your edit makes) but support for any person to have autonomy of their body in whichever way they see fit, including making a living by selling access to it to other people. The only side of sex work which is "wrong" and should be vilified, are the abuses that are prevalent in our society due to its illegality. Morality is not universal, so yours has no more value than anyone else's.

azth 5y ago

> does not create a victim It does.