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> I tend to believe there are some great ideas embedded in the cryptocurrency world Name one. Just one.

aspenmayer 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interactive_zero-knowledge_proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interactive_zero-knowledge...
- hiq 5y ago
  These are used in blockchain technologies, but blockchain technologies are not necessary to obtain them, or am I missing something?
  - aspenmayer 5y ago
    I don’t think a product exists that provides the benefits of blockchain technologies like Bitcoin, Ethereum and EVM broadly, and Monero. Not all blockchains have the same security properties or processing capabilities. That said, I don’t think you can get the same combination of functionality without using a blockchain. Do you have some examples of tech that delivers comparable features/functionality to blockchain tech, without using the blockchain? Do your above examples have usable products with market reach and availability, today? Because that’s the alternative. Warts and all, blockchain tech works when it’s implemented properly by good faith actors. Just like any enterprise involving assets you control, folks you don’t personally know, and being online. Modern day e-commerce didn’t spring whole-cloth from capitalism’s womb fully-formed. The status quo took time to be created and to get to what we have today.
    - hiq 5y ago
      You have to be more explicit about the properties you're referring to for us to have a meaningful discussion. The post you answered was looking for a "great idea", and it's not clear which one you have in mind in your comments.
      - aspenmayer 5y ago
        Anonymous or pseudonymous online transactions themselves comprise the main “great idea” of cryptocurrencies, I thought. I don’t know if you can implement them without the specific properties of the math used, combined with the distributed ledger and security affordances of specific cryptocurrencies like Monero, or even things like Tornado Cash. Cryptocurrencies are enabled by blockchain technology. I don’t know that they fundamentally rely on it by necessity, though all current cryptocurrencies that I’m aware of do use some of derivative of a blockchain, even if it may not be distributed, or may not allow the public to mine it or run validator nodes. Does that make sense? Perhaps you can reply to what you think I’m saying in good faith, and I’ll respond in kind?
        hiq 5y ago
        The existence of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Taler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Taler seems to indicate that you don't need a blockchain to implement anonymous payments. So that might not be the best example. Full decentralization (more exactly, to the extent of the mining power centralization) and full censorship resistance (if I have the private key and some Internet access, game theory says I'll be able to send cryptocurrencies) might require blockchains such as Bitcoin. But it's unclear whether these benefit societies at all once you take the drawbacks into account.
        aspenmayer 5y ago
        > But it's unclear whether these benefit societies at all once you take the drawbacks into account. Taler has such a small userbase, doesn’t it? I don’t really know much about anything, but that seems like a high SnR? I do like Taler, though. More choices means more perspectives and fresh eyes on old problems. They’re looking for devs, btw. I posted about it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29860114 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29860114 You haven’t mentioned any drawbacks?
        hiq 5y ago
        Taler is just a counterexample to "anonymous or pseudonymous online transactions" inherently requiring a blockchain; the userbase is not relevant for this. I could also question the actual userbase of blockchain-based cryptocurrencies when so much of the transaction volume seems to be rooted in speculation and scams rather than someone buying groceries in BTC. > You haven’t mentioned any drawbacks [to full decentralization and censorship resistance]? I don't think the specifics matter so much, it suffices to say that there are some. These properties make it easier to launder money and evade taxes, for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interactive_zero-knowledge_proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interactive_zero-knowledge...

hiq 5y ago
These are used in blockchain technologies, but blockchain technologies are not necessary to obtain them, or am I missing something?
- aspenmayer 5y ago
  I don’t think a product exists that provides the benefits of blockchain technologies like Bitcoin, Ethereum and EVM broadly, and Monero. Not all blockchains have the same security properties or processing capabilities. That said, I don’t think you can get the same combination of functionality without using a blockchain. Do you have some examples of tech that delivers comparable features/functionality to blockchain tech, without using the blockchain? Do your above examples have usable products with market reach and availability, today? Because that’s the alternative. Warts and all, blockchain tech works when it’s implemented properly by good faith actors. Just like any enterprise involving assets you control, folks you don’t personally know, and being online. Modern day e-commerce didn’t spring whole-cloth from capitalism’s womb fully-formed. The status quo took time to be created and to get to what we have today.
  - hiq 5y ago
    You have to be more explicit about the properties you're referring to for us to have a meaningful discussion. The post you answered was looking for a "great idea", and it's not clear which one you have in mind in your comments.
    - aspenmayer 5y ago
      Anonymous or pseudonymous online transactions themselves comprise the main “great idea” of cryptocurrencies, I thought. I don’t know if you can implement them without the specific properties of the math used, combined with the distributed ledger and security affordances of specific cryptocurrencies like Monero, or even things like Tornado Cash. Cryptocurrencies are enabled by blockchain technology. I don’t know that they fundamentally rely on it by necessity, though all current cryptocurrencies that I’m aware of do use some of derivative of a blockchain, even if it may not be distributed, or may not allow the public to mine it or run validator nodes. Does that make sense? Perhaps you can reply to what you think I’m saying in good faith, and I’ll respond in kind?
      - hiq 5y ago
        The existence of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Taler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Taler seems to indicate that you don't need a blockchain to implement anonymous payments. So that might not be the best example. Full decentralization (more exactly, to the extent of the mining power centralization) and full censorship resistance (if I have the private key and some Internet access, game theory says I'll be able to send cryptocurrencies) might require blockchains such as Bitcoin. But it's unclear whether these benefit societies at all once you take the drawbacks into account.
        aspenmayer 5y ago
        > But it's unclear whether these benefit societies at all once you take the drawbacks into account. Taler has such a small userbase, doesn’t it? I don’t really know much about anything, but that seems like a high SnR? I do like Taler, though. More choices means more perspectives and fresh eyes on old problems. They’re looking for devs, btw. I posted about it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29860114 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29860114 You haven’t mentioned any drawbacks?
        hiq 5y ago
        Taler is just a counterexample to "anonymous or pseudonymous online transactions" inherently requiring a blockchain; the userbase is not relevant for this. I could also question the actual userbase of blockchain-based cryptocurrencies when so much of the transaction volume seems to be rooted in speculation and scams rather than someone buying groceries in BTC. > You haven’t mentioned any drawbacks [to full decentralization and censorship resistance]? I don't think the specifics matter so much, it suffices to say that there are some. These properties make it easier to launder money and evade taxes, for example.