13 ms·

I dislike this and it should go away. Firstly, anything which normalises surveillance by citizens on citizens is a death spiral for society. On top of that the

by uuyi 5y ago

I dislike this and it should go away. Firstly, anything which normalises surveillance by citizens on citizens is a death spiral for society. On top of that the £14.99 for 1000 credits approach empowers only the lunatic classes of society who would consider that as a price worth paying to get people into trouble. Secondly, I have problems with the accuracy claims here which are presented disingenuously. The measurement of vehicle wheelbase and the system clock and frame rate is seen as the reference with no mention of the issues with accurately measuring that nor issues like frame stalling and jitter. Thirdly, this will create a lot of noise for law enforcement agencies which may mask other higher priority crimes.

consumer451 5y ago
> Firstly, anything which normalises surveillance by citizens on citizens is a death spiral for society. The new SaaS is Stasi as a Service.
- uuyi 5y ago
  That’s a great analogy. Even if it is slightly depressing.
bradknowles 5y ago
So, I don't want to use a system like this to generate actual fines. I want to embarrass people who are speeding through my neighborhood at 2x the local speed limit, just because they can. In some cases, including school buses. Uploading only the most egregious cases to YouTube on an automated basis would make me happy.
antattack 5y ago
Counting on one's crime not being discovered by keeping odds of detection low is a loosing battle. I think it's better to work towards laws, enforcement and punishment that make sense.
_rnwu 5y ago
> Thirdly, this will create a lot of noise for law enforcement agencies which may mask other higher priority crimes. If it becomes accepted as an automated solution where either a very quick human check or no human check is required, it would reduce their burden.
- chrismcb 5y ago
  You know what would also reduce their burden... Not getting speeding complaints from some random app.
- traceroute66 5y ago
  > if it becomes accepted as an automated solution where either a very quick human check (e.g. that the wheel locations are indeed correctly identified) or no human check is required, it would reduce their burden To put it politely, please take off the rose tinted spectacles. Incase it had escaped your observation, a whole industry has sprung up where specialist lawyers make themselves available to challenge speeding tickets. These speeding tickets are challenged on technicalities. These technicalities relate to ? That's right, issues with CALIBRATED fixed or mobile speed detection equipment, operated and maintained by trained individuals. Typically the crux of the legal challenge is built around ? Yes, that's right. Issues with the calibration of said equipment. So, the chances of law enforcement issuing fines based upon "evidence" of speeding based on something that some random app on someone's phone has spat out ? Yes, that's right. Zero, zilch, nada.
  - mrguyorama 5y ago
    Unfortunately what that all REALLY means is that this system will only catch/charge speeders who also happen to not be able to afford a lawyer to challenge it or take the time off to take it to court.
    - uuyi 5y ago
      Yes. To be fair all low value financial punishments are ethically reprehensible on this ground. They don’t dissuade anyone with money because the consequences are low or easy to appeal and people who are poor are punished harder. This ends up in a situation where punishment causes an even larger cultural divide or pushes people to other crime to make ends meet.
dazc 5y ago
> Firstly, anything which normalises surveillance by citizens on citizens is a death spiral for society. Do you also condone citizens witnessing other crimes and doing nothing or is your opinion limited to dangerous driving only?
- zionic 5y ago
  You're making a rather large and unsupported assumption that "speeding" is dangerous. In the overwhelming majority of cases it is not. 10-100M people in the US speed every day. "Speeding" as a term makes no distinction between the common 5-10 over and doing 120 in a 75. Meanwhile US speed limits are incredibly low, and treat a sports car on an open dry road the same as an 80,000lb semi on wet tarmac.
  - dazc 5y ago
    I believe the ideal use case for this app is on residential streets where the chances of impact with a pedestrian or child playing are sufficiently high to warrant a low speed limit? Anyone who chooses to exceed this limit in such an area IS driving dangerously. I am guessing your defence of speeding relates to less populated areas where the chances of hitting a pedestrian are pretty much zero?
    - zionic 5y ago
      >I believe the ideal use case for this app is on residential streets where the chances of impact with a pedestrian or child playing are sufficiently high to warrant a low speed limit? Case in point. Many neighborhoods have 15mph limits and speed bumps. Everyone drives 25-30 plus and it's far from mad-max. We live in a world where exceeding this particular "limit" by 60% is not only safe, it's common. On first glance it just seems stupid, but on deeper inspection the real goal of these systems becomes obvious. If everyone is speeding, you can arbitrarily pull over anyone at any time with legal justification. These types of selective enforcement schemes are how bias slips in to what should be deterministic systems.
      - 5y ago
gfxgirl 5y ago
> anything which normalises surveillance by citizens on citizens is a death spiral for society. Citation needed. I'd argue that without surveillance we wouldn't even have society. We'd just have warlords and anarchy
- zionic 5y ago
  We had society long before surveillance.
- dismalpedigree 5y ago
  This is ridiculous. Society doesn’t require surveillance.
  - gfxgirl 5y ago
    we didn't really. we got society by people watching out each other and reporting strangers and infractions to the authorites. Before that it was each person for themselves (not society)
thrwy_ywrht 5y ago
>anything which normalises surveillance by citizens on citizens is a death spiral for society FWIW, speeding causes actual deaths of members of society But I don't think this is the solution. The solution is better road design (road diets, narrower lanes, etc)
- vba616 5y ago
  I agree with your last sentence, but of course we can't instantly redesign any road at any time, and so there is a standard, orthodox method of setting speed limits which is the 85th percentile of the speeds people actually drive at. From a random document summarizing the process: "With the definition of 85th percentile speed, it would seem that the signed (posted) speed limit of a street would be highly influential in determining the 85th percentile speed, however the exact opposite is the case. A deeper dive into 85th percentile speed helps to reveal why it is a major consideration in determining a street’s posted speed limit. As described above, the 85th percentile speed defines the speed that 85 percent of drivers will drive at or below under free-flowing conditions. Most people don’t drive according to the posted speed limit, but account for the visual aspects of the street and a ‘feel’ for the street. The visual factors that influence speeds can include: • Lane and shoulder configurations, widths, and presence of curbs • Presence of vertical and horizontal curves • Sight distance and obstructions • Presence of surrounding developments to the street • Access management characteristics and medians/turn lane configurations" "This uniformity of vehicle speeds increases safety and reduces the risks for vehicle collisions. When vehicles deviate from a standard speed, either faster or slower, the potential for crashes increase, whether caused by a slow car in a rear end collision or a fast car completing lane changes to maneuver through slower traffic. By setting the speed limit to the 85th percentile speed this uniformity is achieved and safety is increased." https://www.lincoln.ne.gov/files/sharedassets/public/ltu/transportation/traffic-engineering/regulatory-speed-limits.pdf https://www.lincoln.ne.gov/files/sharedassets/public/ltu/tra...
- iancmceachern 5y ago
  Speeding isn't the cause, reckless driving is. Just because someone was speeding at the time of the accident doesn't mean it was the cause. Reckless out of control driving is the cause, speeding is the symptom.
zionic 5y ago
Exactly. I'm finding it very hard to follow HN's rules and not engage in personal attacks against the developer in this thread. It's hard to put into words the disdain I feel towards the kinds of people who build things like this. We really need better platforms than what we have now, these types of people deserve to hear what we really think of them, instead of being protected by "moderation".
gmuslera 5y ago
Shouldn't be needed this kind of app. But if it is really needed (traffic related deaths are a big component of the total deaths, and you should count also other bad outcomes of traffic accidents), then it might not be a so bad idea. Yes, ripe to be abused, but the other side abuses too. And the abuse of one side may or not end in a speeding ticket, while from the other side may end killing you or leaving you disabled for the rest of your life.
- uuyi 5y ago
  No no no it's a terrible idea full stop and I've been in car accidents before. In fact I had someone roll a car into my front garden a couple of years back. The problem is reckless incompetence, ego and ignorance behind the wheel. Reporting the guy who rolled through my fence to the police and then them allowing him to keep driving because he requires driving to earn a living is where the problem is. He should have forfeited his right to get behind a wheel there and then and had to live with the consequences. I'm sure he's probably killed someone by now. The car was doing under the speed limit when it was rolled into my garden.
specialist 5y ago
Humans are intrinsically revenge driven scolds and gossips. Evolutionary psychology, monkey sphere, and all that. We should leverage that, not deny it. This terrific app is a good step towards closing the feedback loop, establishing a direct line from a transgressive behaviour to social condemnation, punishment, and perhaps ultimately banishment. As Libertarian demiurge Robert A. Heinlein has taught us: A well-armed society is a polite society.
- uuyi 5y ago
  I think America disproves Heinlein.

by uuyi 5y ago

consumer451 5y ago

> Firstly, anything which normalises surveillance by citizens on citizens is a death spiral for society. The new SaaS is Stasi as a Service.

uuyi 5y ago
That’s a great analogy. Even if it is slightly depressing.

bradknowles 5y ago

So, I don't want to use a system like this to generate actual fines. I want to embarrass people who are speeding through my neighborhood at 2x the local speed limit, just because they can. In some cases, including school buses. Uploading only the most egregious cases to YouTube on an automated basis would make me happy.

antattack 5y ago

Counting on one's crime not being discovered by keeping odds of detection low is a loosing battle. I think it's better to work towards laws, enforcement and punishment that make sense.

_rnwu 5y ago

> Thirdly, this will create a lot of noise for law enforcement agencies which may mask other higher priority crimes. If it becomes accepted as an automated solution where either a very quick human check or no human check is required, it would reduce their burden.

chrismcb 5y ago
You know what would also reduce their burden... Not getting speeding complaints from some random app.
traceroute66 5y ago
> if it becomes accepted as an automated solution where either a very quick human check (e.g. that the wheel locations are indeed correctly identified) or no human check is required, it would reduce their burden To put it politely, please take off the rose tinted spectacles. Incase it had escaped your observation, a whole industry has sprung up where specialist lawyers make themselves available to challenge speeding tickets. These speeding tickets are challenged on technicalities. These technicalities relate to ? That's right, issues with CALIBRATED fixed or mobile speed detection equipment, operated and maintained by trained individuals. Typically the crux of the legal challenge is built around ? Yes, that's right. Issues with the calibration of said equipment. So, the chances of law enforcement issuing fines based upon "evidence" of speeding based on something that some random app on someone's phone has spat out ? Yes, that's right. Zero, zilch, nada.
- mrguyorama 5y ago
  Unfortunately what that all REALLY means is that this system will only catch/charge speeders who also happen to not be able to afford a lawyer to challenge it or take the time off to take it to court.
  - uuyi 5y ago
    Yes. To be fair all low value financial punishments are ethically reprehensible on this ground. They don’t dissuade anyone with money because the consequences are low or easy to appeal and people who are poor are punished harder. This ends up in a situation where punishment causes an even larger cultural divide or pushes people to other crime to make ends meet.

dazc 5y ago

> Firstly, anything which normalises surveillance by citizens on citizens is a death spiral for society. Do you also condone citizens witnessing other crimes and doing nothing or is your opinion limited to dangerous driving only?

zionic 5y ago
You're making a rather large and unsupported assumption that "speeding" is dangerous. In the overwhelming majority of cases it is not. 10-100M people in the US speed every day. "Speeding" as a term makes no distinction between the common 5-10 over and doing 120 in a 75. Meanwhile US speed limits are incredibly low, and treat a sports car on an open dry road the same as an 80,000lb semi on wet tarmac.
- dazc 5y ago
  I believe the ideal use case for this app is on residential streets where the chances of impact with a pedestrian or child playing are sufficiently high to warrant a low speed limit? Anyone who chooses to exceed this limit in such an area IS driving dangerously. I am guessing your defence of speeding relates to less populated areas where the chances of hitting a pedestrian are pretty much zero?
  - zionic 5y ago
    >I believe the ideal use case for this app is on residential streets where the chances of impact with a pedestrian or child playing are sufficiently high to warrant a low speed limit? Case in point. Many neighborhoods have 15mph limits and speed bumps. Everyone drives 25-30 plus and it's far from mad-max. We live in a world where exceeding this particular "limit" by 60% is not only safe, it's common. On first glance it just seems stupid, but on deeper inspection the real goal of these systems becomes obvious. If everyone is speeding, you can arbitrarily pull over anyone at any time with legal justification. These types of selective enforcement schemes are how bias slips in to what should be deterministic systems.
    - 5y ago

gfxgirl 5y ago

> anything which normalises surveillance by citizens on citizens is a death spiral for society. Citation needed. I'd argue that without surveillance we wouldn't even have society. We'd just have warlords and anarchy

zionic 5y ago
We had society long before surveillance.
dismalpedigree 5y ago
This is ridiculous. Society doesn’t require surveillance.
- gfxgirl 5y ago
  we didn't really. we got society by people watching out each other and reporting strangers and infractions to the authorites. Before that it was each person for themselves (not society)

thrwy_ywrht 5y ago

>anything which normalises surveillance by citizens on citizens is a death spiral for society FWIW, speeding causes actual deaths of members of society But I don't think this is the solution. The solution is better road design (road diets, narrower lanes, etc)

vba616 5y ago
I agree with your last sentence, but of course we can't instantly redesign any road at any time, and so there is a standard, orthodox method of setting speed limits which is the 85th percentile of the speeds people actually drive at. From a random document summarizing the process: "With the definition of 85th percentile speed, it would seem that the signed (posted) speed limit of a street would be highly influential in determining the 85th percentile speed, however the exact opposite is the case. A deeper dive into 85th percentile speed helps to reveal why it is a major consideration in determining a street’s posted speed limit. As described above, the 85th percentile speed defines the speed that 85 percent of drivers will drive at or below under free-flowing conditions. Most people don’t drive according to the posted speed limit, but account for the visual aspects of the street and a ‘feel’ for the street. The visual factors that influence speeds can include: • Lane and shoulder configurations, widths, and presence of curbs • Presence of vertical and horizontal curves • Sight distance and obstructions • Presence of surrounding developments to the street • Access management characteristics and medians/turn lane configurations" "This uniformity of vehicle speeds increases safety and reduces the risks for vehicle collisions. When vehicles deviate from a standard speed, either faster or slower, the potential for crashes increase, whether caused by a slow car in a rear end collision or a fast car completing lane changes to maneuver through slower traffic. By setting the speed limit to the 85th percentile speed this uniformity is achieved and safety is increased." https://www.lincoln.ne.gov/files/sharedassets/public/ltu/transportation/traffic-engineering/regulatory-speed-limits.pdf https://www.lincoln.ne.gov/files/sharedassets/public/ltu/tra...
iancmceachern 5y ago
Speeding isn't the cause, reckless driving is. Just because someone was speeding at the time of the accident doesn't mean it was the cause. Reckless out of control driving is the cause, speeding is the symptom.

zionic 5y ago

Exactly. I'm finding it very hard to follow HN's rules and not engage in personal attacks against the developer in this thread. It's hard to put into words the disdain I feel towards the kinds of people who build things like this. We really need better platforms than what we have now, these types of people deserve to hear what we really think of them, instead of being protected by "moderation".

gmuslera 5y ago

Shouldn't be needed this kind of app. But if it is really needed (traffic related deaths are a big component of the total deaths, and you should count also other bad outcomes of traffic accidents), then it might not be a so bad idea. Yes, ripe to be abused, but the other side abuses too. And the abuse of one side may or not end in a speeding ticket, while from the other side may end killing you or leaving you disabled for the rest of your life.

uuyi 5y ago
No no no it's a terrible idea full stop and I've been in car accidents before. In fact I had someone roll a car into my front garden a couple of years back. The problem is reckless incompetence, ego and ignorance behind the wheel. Reporting the guy who rolled through my fence to the police and then them allowing him to keep driving because he requires driving to earn a living is where the problem is. He should have forfeited his right to get behind a wheel there and then and had to live with the consequences. I'm sure he's probably killed someone by now. The car was doing under the speed limit when it was rolled into my garden.

specialist 5y ago

Humans are intrinsically revenge driven scolds and gossips. Evolutionary psychology, monkey sphere, and all that. We should leverage that, not deny it. This terrific app is a good step towards closing the feedback loop, establishing a direct line from a transgressive behaviour to social condemnation, punishment, and perhaps ultimately banishment. As Libertarian demiurge Robert A. Heinlein has taught us: A well-armed society is a polite society.

uuyi 5y ago
I think America disproves Heinlein.