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How many GW of coal plants are being built brand new in Asia right now? It's very high. These will operate for decades. What are we to do? Tell them to stop? T

How many GW of coal plants are being built brand new in Asia right now? It's very high. These will operate for decades. What are we to do? Tell them to stop? Tried that unsuccessfully. I would ignore us if I were them. USA and Europe still emits tons of CO2. Has been emitting worse then them for many many decades. This carbon emitting elevated much of the wealth of the country. We are basically telling them to not become wealthy like us. They wonder why we haven't done much to reduce emissions. We were too late, it's happening now. What do we need to do. Ignore carbon taxes that do nothing. Instead, build renewables, build batteries, build solar panels. The remaining amount of fossil fuels is a hard limit. Staying on them is idiotic to say the least. It's not just transportation and centralized energy production. Plastics, lubricants, wax, sulphur, ashphalt are other products of oil. What are the non-petroleum options? We also need non-carbon emitting things like concrete. Why do we just go to it? No regulations, no taxes, maybe even funding for any corporations who work on doing these things? Wait nobody is doing this? The government is restricting and slowing this effort? Actions speak louder than words, why are the world's nations saying they'll do something while their actions say they have no intention to do anything? Is there an unspoken denial of climate change by the world?

triceratops 5y ago
> Ignore carbon taxes that do nothing Where have carbon taxes been enacted and in those places, have they failed to reduce consumption? > What are we to do? Tell them to stop? Tried that unsuccessfully Reduce our own consumption, institute carbon taxes. Tell them if they don't do the same, their imports are embargoed. Actually follow through and accept the rise in cost of goods.
- incomingpain 5y ago
  >Where have carbon taxes been enacted and in those places, have they failed to reduce consumption? Yes. Oil/Gas usage is inelastic to price. The only appreciable factor toward reducing oil has been the proliferation of hybrids and EVs and its nowhere near enough. Before the carbon tax we had practically a 100% combined road taxes on gasoline to begin with. Tacking on only a tad bit more isn't producing any new reduction. >Reduce our own consumption, institute carbon taxes. How? Carbon taxes didn't work. >Tell them if they don't do the same, their imports are embargoed. Actually follow through and accept the rise in cost of goods. So pay more taxes for what? We are going to pay more to punish them? That doesnt sound like punishing them at all. Sounds like punishing me.
  - triceratops 5y ago
    > Yes Give me some examples. > Oil/Gas usage is inelastic to price. Horseshit. Here's a report from the Congressional Budget Office saying the exact opposite.[1] "The relationship between gasoline prices and the demand for automobiles was the subject of several economic studies in the 1980s in the aftermath of the gasoline price shocks of the 1970s. Those studies found that higher gasoline prices increased the demand for smaller, more-fuel-efficient vehicles relative to larger, less-efficient vehicles. That relationship continues to hold with recent vehicle sales, according to several current economic studies." > Carbon taxes didn't work. Saying that over and over doesn't make it true. You haven't given any evidence to support your claims. I have. 1. https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/88xx/doc8893/chapter2.6.1.shtml https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/88x...
    - incomingpain 5y ago
      >Give me some examples. Canada works fine as an example. BC did a carbon tax provincially and was found to be taking a beating pretty badly. Much of the claimed success of their carbon tax was that emissions did drop briefly, but only because of the financial crisis. After the financial crisis finished, everyone in Canada recovered, even the atlantic provinces more than BC. Worse yet, new homes being built in BC practically came to a halt because concrete emits so much carbon. It was adding a tremendous amount of new cost to new homes. BC never recovered from the financial crisis until about 2017. You know the best part of following the disaster the BC carbon tax? It was John Horgan's realization. He switched virtually all his environmental points away from carbon neutral to 'cleaning up wildlife habitats' and actually doing something for climate change like becoming a low-carbon... not zero-carbon... low carbon product producer. Kind of the point of my posts. Though you'll also notice... BC is the worst polluter in all of Canada. It is their forest fires from mismanaged forests that are killing Canada... and the NDP aren't even considering doing anything about carbon emissions anymore. It's beautiful to see someone's political ideology to evolve. Alberta and Ontario politically scrapped the carbon tax because of the disaster that it is. Federal came along an implemented one and has now even raised it. All these have been in power for years and have achieved absolutely nothing. >Horseshit. Here's a report from the Congressional Budget Office saying the exact opposite.[1] Not up for debate. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/040915/how-does-law-supply-and-demand-affect-oil-industry.asp https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/040915/how-does-law... https://www.federalreserve.gov/econresdata/ifdp/2016/files/ifdp1173.pdf https://www.federalreserve.gov/econresdata/ifdp/2016/files/i... https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomkonrad/2012/01/26/the-end-of-elastic-oil/?sh=7689ab1c36d6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomkonrad/2012/01/26/the-end-of... https://www.reed.edu/economics/parker/f10/201/cases/oil_demand.html https://www.reed.edu/economics/parker/f10/201/cases/oil_dema... https://www.bankofcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/oil-price-elasticities-oil-price-fluctuations.pdf https://www.bankofcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/oil-p... You may say horseshit as much as you please but oil is an inelastic commodity. There is no denying this. This is why carbon taxes are literally doing nothing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_fuel_taxes_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_fuel_taxes_in_Canada The Carbon tax isn't even a significant increase in the taxes on gasoline. If taxing it is reducing usage, then that's already happening, the marginal increase by the carbon tax is only a small drop in the bucket compared to the rest. That's right... these fuel taxes are regressive. If a progressive tax means mainly rich people pay taxes. The rich are who can buy EVs and will disproportionately be avoiding the taxes. Increase in price of oil/gas means the poor and even middleclass can save up less to buy an EV. Even better... clearly fuel taxes have far exceeded the laffer curve: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/laffercurve.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/laffercurve.asp So why has this carbon tax done nothing? No plan to put solar panels on every home or buy everyone an EV? Why has literally nothing been achieved? They maxed out that tax. They dont actually receive more tax revenue to do anything with. If your goal is to do something for climate change, carbon taxes aren't doing anything at all and clearly you think they are. That's how bad carbon taxes are for helping with climate change. People think they are doing something. If you are like me and want to do something for climate change, you vehemently oppose carbon taxes. >Saying that over and over doesn't make it true. You haven't given any evidence to support your claims. I have. It will be amazing the day that this breaks. It will come and we will see it the day it happens, it will coincide with an options expiration day. It will cause a major recession if not depression. This is the day that Alberta, Texas, etc become Detroit. Suddenly an elastic commodity feels the weight of tremendous taxation and will send oil prices to negatives where options and producers basically say they cant afford to produce. Then post-crash literally nobody will be there to buy. They just abruptly have to shutdown everything. Not exactly nostradamus, just explaining what has happened before. https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/wcs-wti-alberta-oilsands-1.4865198 https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/wcs-wti-alberta-oilsands-1.... When Alberta had their insane carbon tax it happened locally. Oil prices around the world were normal, Alberta dropped briefly below $10/barrel in 2018. Never recovered until post-election in april 2019 and first thing Jason Kenney did was obliterate the carbon tax. Literally Bill #1 passed by a true majority government whose popularity peaked because they were to eliminate the carbon tax. It's not some gradual slow reduction in production encouraging people to swtich to EV, it's a sudden we cant afford to pay our workers. We will stop producing until oil prices recover. Yet the economy still needs fuel to be produced but none will be coming to market. Diesel semi trucks being bought today are meant to be amortized for 20+ years. We need fuel for that long, fuel will happen that long. If an election happens soon when this breaks. Then people will just vote out the clown politicians, cancel the carbon tax. If the election isn't happening anytime soon... this will be a revolution. Not by me... i'll be driving my cybertruck.
triceratops 5y ago
> Plastics, lubricants, wax, sulphur, ashphalt are other products of oil If they're produced with green energy (i.e. oil is only used as a chemical input instead of an energy input), then they aren't adding carbon to the atmosphere. Continue using them in good health.

triceratops 5y ago

> Ignore carbon taxes that do nothing Where have carbon taxes been enacted and in those places, have they failed to reduce consumption? > What are we to do? Tell them to stop? Tried that unsuccessfully Reduce our own consumption, institute carbon taxes. Tell them if they don't do the same, their imports are embargoed. Actually follow through and accept the rise in cost of goods.

incomingpain 5y ago
>Where have carbon taxes been enacted and in those places, have they failed to reduce consumption? Yes. Oil/Gas usage is inelastic to price. The only appreciable factor toward reducing oil has been the proliferation of hybrids and EVs and its nowhere near enough. Before the carbon tax we had practically a 100% combined road taxes on gasoline to begin with. Tacking on only a tad bit more isn't producing any new reduction. >Reduce our own consumption, institute carbon taxes. How? Carbon taxes didn't work. >Tell them if they don't do the same, their imports are embargoed. Actually follow through and accept the rise in cost of goods. So pay more taxes for what? We are going to pay more to punish them? That doesnt sound like punishing them at all. Sounds like punishing me.
- triceratops 5y ago
  > Yes Give me some examples. > Oil/Gas usage is inelastic to price. Horseshit. Here's a report from the Congressional Budget Office saying the exact opposite.[1] "The relationship between gasoline prices and the demand for automobiles was the subject of several economic studies in the 1980s in the aftermath of the gasoline price shocks of the 1970s. Those studies found that higher gasoline prices increased the demand for smaller, more-fuel-efficient vehicles relative to larger, less-efficient vehicles. That relationship continues to hold with recent vehicle sales, according to several current economic studies." > Carbon taxes didn't work. Saying that over and over doesn't make it true. You haven't given any evidence to support your claims. I have. 1. https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/88xx/doc8893/chapter2.6.1.shtml https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/88x...
  - incomingpain 5y ago
    >Give me some examples. Canada works fine as an example. BC did a carbon tax provincially and was found to be taking a beating pretty badly. Much of the claimed success of their carbon tax was that emissions did drop briefly, but only because of the financial crisis. After the financial crisis finished, everyone in Canada recovered, even the atlantic provinces more than BC. Worse yet, new homes being built in BC practically came to a halt because concrete emits so much carbon. It was adding a tremendous amount of new cost to new homes. BC never recovered from the financial crisis until about 2017. You know the best part of following the disaster the BC carbon tax? It was John Horgan's realization. He switched virtually all his environmental points away from carbon neutral to 'cleaning up wildlife habitats' and actually doing something for climate change like becoming a low-carbon... not zero-carbon... low carbon product producer. Kind of the point of my posts. Though you'll also notice... BC is the worst polluter in all of Canada. It is their forest fires from mismanaged forests that are killing Canada... and the NDP aren't even considering doing anything about carbon emissions anymore. It's beautiful to see someone's political ideology to evolve. Alberta and Ontario politically scrapped the carbon tax because of the disaster that it is. Federal came along an implemented one and has now even raised it. All these have been in power for years and have achieved absolutely nothing. >Horseshit. Here's a report from the Congressional Budget Office saying the exact opposite.[1] Not up for debate. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/040915/how-does-law-supply-and-demand-affect-oil-industry.asp https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/040915/how-does-law... https://www.federalreserve.gov/econresdata/ifdp/2016/files/ifdp1173.pdf https://www.federalreserve.gov/econresdata/ifdp/2016/files/i... https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomkonrad/2012/01/26/the-end-of-elastic-oil/?sh=7689ab1c36d6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomkonrad/2012/01/26/the-end-of... https://www.reed.edu/economics/parker/f10/201/cases/oil_demand.html https://www.reed.edu/economics/parker/f10/201/cases/oil_dema... https://www.bankofcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/oil-price-elasticities-oil-price-fluctuations.pdf https://www.bankofcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/oil-p... You may say horseshit as much as you please but oil is an inelastic commodity. There is no denying this. This is why carbon taxes are literally doing nothing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_fuel_taxes_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_fuel_taxes_in_Canada The Carbon tax isn't even a significant increase in the taxes on gasoline. If taxing it is reducing usage, then that's already happening, the marginal increase by the carbon tax is only a small drop in the bucket compared to the rest. That's right... these fuel taxes are regressive. If a progressive tax means mainly rich people pay taxes. The rich are who can buy EVs and will disproportionately be avoiding the taxes. Increase in price of oil/gas means the poor and even middleclass can save up less to buy an EV. Even better... clearly fuel taxes have far exceeded the laffer curve: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/laffercurve.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/laffercurve.asp So why has this carbon tax done nothing? No plan to put solar panels on every home or buy everyone an EV? Why has literally nothing been achieved? They maxed out that tax. They dont actually receive more tax revenue to do anything with. If your goal is to do something for climate change, carbon taxes aren't doing anything at all and clearly you think they are. That's how bad carbon taxes are for helping with climate change. People think they are doing something. If you are like me and want to do something for climate change, you vehemently oppose carbon taxes. >Saying that over and over doesn't make it true. You haven't given any evidence to support your claims. I have. It will be amazing the day that this breaks. It will come and we will see it the day it happens, it will coincide with an options expiration day. It will cause a major recession if not depression. This is the day that Alberta, Texas, etc become Detroit. Suddenly an elastic commodity feels the weight of tremendous taxation and will send oil prices to negatives where options and producers basically say they cant afford to produce. Then post-crash literally nobody will be there to buy. They just abruptly have to shutdown everything. Not exactly nostradamus, just explaining what has happened before. https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/wcs-wti-alberta-oilsands-1.4865198 https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/wcs-wti-alberta-oilsands-1.... When Alberta had their insane carbon tax it happened locally. Oil prices around the world were normal, Alberta dropped briefly below $10/barrel in 2018. Never recovered until post-election in april 2019 and first thing Jason Kenney did was obliterate the carbon tax. Literally Bill #1 passed by a true majority government whose popularity peaked because they were to eliminate the carbon tax. It's not some gradual slow reduction in production encouraging people to swtich to EV, it's a sudden we cant afford to pay our workers. We will stop producing until oil prices recover. Yet the economy still needs fuel to be produced but none will be coming to market. Diesel semi trucks being bought today are meant to be amortized for 20+ years. We need fuel for that long, fuel will happen that long. If an election happens soon when this breaks. Then people will just vote out the clown politicians, cancel the carbon tax. If the election isn't happening anytime soon... this will be a revolution. Not by me... i'll be driving my cybertruck.

triceratops 5y ago

> Plastics, lubricants, wax, sulphur, ashphalt are other products of oil If they're produced with green energy (i.e. oil is only used as a chemical input instead of an energy input), then they aren't adding carbon to the atmosphere. Continue using them in good health.