6 ms·

That's why Germany is planning to do Sektorenkopplung. Don't know the english word. Basically everything is switched over to electric. Transportation, Heating,

That's why Germany is planning to do Sektorenkopplung. Don't know the english word. Basically everything is switched over to electric. Transportation, Heating, …

dangerlibrary 5y ago
I could be wrong, but I thought the point of the GP comment was that there are many industrial processes like smelting that don't have good electric replacements. For example, it's nigh-impossible to maintain the temperatures required to run a steel plant with no combustion and only resistive heating elements.
- adrianN 5y ago
  There are steelmaking processes using hydrogen for reducing the ore and arc furnaces for heat. They are currently a bit more expensive than using coke.
- _ph_ 5y ago
  For those, one would use H2 or methane created with the use of electricity.
- lazide 5y ago
  Arc blast furnaces are a thing - just more expensive. The electrode (typically graphite) is consumed, so technically not zero carbon, but the gas could be captured.
- scythe 5y ago
  One major category of such processes is calcination, both for cement (CaCO3 >> CaO) and alumina (Al(OH)3 >> Al2O3). This can be done with concentrated solar heating: https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2017/gc/c7gc00585g https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2017/gc/c7gc0058... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0038092X18307874 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0038092X1... But building enough plants to actually do this at scale could take a while. Supposedly there was an anode developed for electrolytic iron reduction: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12134 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12134 but there have been problems with scaling it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30349905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30349905 Between calcination, smelting and heating, you've addressed a pretty big chunk of fuel-burning processes. The question is whether we can get these kinds of technologies online in time without Manhattan-Project levels of government support, since that does not seem to be forthcoming.
  - namibj 5y ago
    Calcination can also use low-duty-cycle electric kilns that soak up spare solar panel electricity (from overprovisioning), at least once you have 2-3 days of storage to level solar fluctuations and day/night (big, cheap ovens take a while to heat up). In general, they are quite amenable to using electrically heated air in place of methane/air combustion exhaust.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  They all have good replacements, but if their competitor is allowed to pollute without paying for externalities, they'll struggle in the market.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    The EU had, as pointless as it was, anti dumping tariffs on solar modules. Such tariffs can be used to protect domestic non-poluters against their foreign competition.
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
      They've been talking about exactly that for a while but recent events seen to have nudged it along: https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/3/15/eu-countries-back-plan-for-world-first-carbon-border-tariff https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/3/15/eu-countries-ba...
lkbm 5y ago
Looks like the translation is "sector coupling" or "integrated energy", but I think the real key in translating this is that we typically use a different framing in English. German "Sektorenkopplung": We're explicitly unifying all sectors to a single source of energy, and it's implicit that this source is electricity. English "electrification": We're explicitly switching sectors to electricity, and it's implicit that this will ultimately tie every sector to a single source of energy. Disclaimer: I don't speak German.
- NortySpock 5y ago
  The English-language podcasts I listen to have dubbed it the "electrify everything" movement.
  - chess_buster 5y ago
    To be honest, English most often sounds way cooler than German.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

That's why Germany is planning to do Sektorenkopplung. Don't know the english word. Basically everything is switched over to electric. Transportation, Heating, …

dangerlibrary 5y ago

I could be wrong, but I thought the point of the GP comment was that there are many industrial processes like smelting that don't have good electric replacements. For example, it's nigh-impossible to maintain the temperatures required to run a steel plant with no combustion and only resistive heating elements.

adrianN 5y ago
There are steelmaking processes using hydrogen for reducing the ore and arc furnaces for heat. They are currently a bit more expensive than using coke.
_ph_ 5y ago
For those, one would use H2 or methane created with the use of electricity.
lazide 5y ago
Arc blast furnaces are a thing - just more expensive. The electrode (typically graphite) is consumed, so technically not zero carbon, but the gas could be captured.
scythe 5y ago
One major category of such processes is calcination, both for cement (CaCO3 >> CaO) and alumina (Al(OH)3 >> Al2O3). This can be done with concentrated solar heating: https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2017/gc/c7gc00585g https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2017/gc/c7gc0058... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0038092X18307874 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0038092X1... But building enough plants to actually do this at scale could take a while. Supposedly there was an anode developed for electrolytic iron reduction: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12134 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12134 but there have been problems with scaling it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30349905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30349905 Between calcination, smelting and heating, you've addressed a pretty big chunk of fuel-burning processes. The question is whether we can get these kinds of technologies online in time without Manhattan-Project levels of government support, since that does not seem to be forthcoming.
- namibj 5y ago
  Calcination can also use low-duty-cycle electric kilns that soak up spare solar panel electricity (from overprovisioning), at least once you have 2-3 days of storage to level solar fluctuations and day/night (big, cheap ovens take a while to heat up). In general, they are quite amenable to using electrically heated air in place of methane/air combustion exhaust.
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
They all have good replacements, but if their competitor is allowed to pollute without paying for externalities, they'll struggle in the market.
- hef19898 5y ago
  The EU had, as pointless as it was, anti dumping tariffs on solar modules. Such tariffs can be used to protect domestic non-poluters against their foreign competition.
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    They've been talking about exactly that for a while but recent events seen to have nudged it along: https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/3/15/eu-countries-back-plan-for-world-first-carbon-border-tariff https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/3/15/eu-countries-ba...

lkbm 5y ago

Looks like the translation is "sector coupling" or "integrated energy", but I think the real key in translating this is that we typically use a different framing in English. German "Sektorenkopplung": We're explicitly unifying all sectors to a single source of energy, and it's implicit that this source is electricity. English "electrification": We're explicitly switching sectors to electricity, and it's implicit that this will ultimately tie every sector to a single source of energy. Disclaimer: I don't speak German.

NortySpock 5y ago
The English-language podcasts I listen to have dubbed it the "electrify everything" movement.
- chess_buster 5y ago
  To be honest, English most often sounds way cooler than German.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]