4 ms·

Because every single statement is wrong. > In the US, the thought is that if you're doing a PhD, say, it's a full-time professionalized pursuit You're still a

Because every single statement is wrong. > In the US, the thought is that if you're doing a PhD, say, it's a full-time professionalized pursuit You're still a student, still taking classes. > under the assumption you will be a professor; Simply not true, you could pursue all sorts of jobs. > in the rest of the world Do I really need to comment that? Hint: outside the US border, there is more than one country. Germany alone has 16 different educational systems. > a PhD is essentially an apprenticeship in writing No, it's about research. > under a mentor for however long it takes you, Limited to 3 years e.g. in France or Italy. > often with no aim (i.e. career) other than that writing itself. Man, that's just bullshit, I don't even know where to start.

agentcoops 5y ago
I read your post in good faith and respond in kind. There are certainly very important details I did not elaborate in a quick post, but I assume you understand that the question under consideration is how someone pursuing a full-time career might partake in (non-STEM) higher academic degrees. While I regret using the expression “rest of the world”, I don’t believe it’s just hyperbole to say that this is easier in Europe. You are correct that people pursue different paths after US PhDs. However, as you say, a US PhD contains heavy course work and (outside STEM, where I have few data points since most researchers I knew dropped out to work for startups/FAANG) the average full-time program duration is only going up. There are exceptions of course, but admissions are centered around a personal scholarly narrative rather than a particular project and pricing is generally under the expectation of grant funding. Again, there are further details we could write books about, but I don’t think this is far from a general picture of US PhDs in the humanities and social sciences. In Europe, MAs and PhDs are separated as many have noted. I know most about the UK context, where MAs are affordable and can be taken part-time, completed in two years with one class a semester. PhDs, which are research only (I agree with the you and would indeed change “writing” to “research” if I wrote the post again), can also be done part-time over eight years for a very nominal cost (about 5k a year for an international student). Systems have become more standardized in the EU after the Bologna accords towards the more professionalized three year track, but I’ve known PhD students in Germany to take 10+ years writing their dissertations. Unless policies have changed in the past few years, the same goes for France. Again, comparing post-graduate education between US and EU, let alone between EU countries, is a complex topic. I have attempted only to show that there is a substantial regional difference and that, at least outside STEM, the EU system is more accessible for those with full-time careers, who do not plan to work in academia.
- nautilius 5y ago
  > I read your post in good faith and respond in kind. Sure, sounds good. Let's do this! > I don’t believe it’s just hyperbole to say that this is easier in Europe You haven't brought any evidence to the table except your personal opinion, which is, as you notice yourself, often only crudely argued in your post. > However, as you say, a US PhD contains heavy course work and (outside STEM, where I have few data points since most researchers I knew dropped out to work for startups/FAANG) It's still pretty light compared to what you do at many European universities up to the MSc level. Hence less (or no) course work in many European universities after your MSc. > the average full-time program duration is only going up. Ok. > There are exceptions of course, but admissions are centered around a personal scholarly narrative rather than a particular project and pricing is generally under the expectation of grant funding. Again, there are further details we could write books about, but I don’t think this is far from a general picture of US PhDs in the humanities and social sciences. So far I don't see any contradiction to what I wrote. > the more professionalized three year track You still haven't discussed what you even mean with 'professionalized'. Is a non-three-year degree unprofessional? > I’ve known PhD students in Germany to take 10+ years writing their dissertations. Absolutely, many of them in full time positions doing that research. > Unless policies have changed in the past few years, the same goes for France. My information is different. > agentcoops 8 hours ago | parent | context | flag | on: Ask HN: I'm interested in so many disciplines, but... I read your post in good faith and respond in kind. There are certainly very important details I did not elaborate in a quick post, but I assume you understand that the question under consideration is how someone pursuing a full-time career might partake in (non-STEM) higher academic degrees. While I regret using the expression “rest of the world”, I don’t believe it’s just hyperbole to say that this is easier in Europe. You are correct that people pursue different paths after US PhDs. However, as you say, a US PhD contains heavy course work and (outside STEM, where I have few data points since most researchers I knew dropped out to work for startups/FAANG) the average full-time program duration is only going up. There are exceptions of course, but admissions are centered around a personal scholarly narrative rather than a particular project and pricing is generally under the expectation of grant funding. Again, there are further details we could write books about, but I don’t think this is far from a general picture of US PhDs in the humanities and social sciences. In Europe, MAs and PhDs are separated as many have noted. I know most about the UK context, where MAs are affordable and can be taken part-time, completed in two years with one class a semester. PhDs, which are research only (I agree with the you and would indeed change “writing” to “research” if I wrote the post again), can also be done part-time over eight years for a very nominal cost (about 5k a year for an international student). Systems have become more standardized in the EU after the Bologna accords towards the more professionalized three year track, but I’ve known PhD students in Germany to take 10+ years writing their dissertations. Unless policies have changed in the past few years, the same goes for France. > Again, comparing post-graduate education between US and EU, let alone between EU countries, is a complex topic. I know that; you're the one who's presenting it as simple. > I have attempted only to show that there is a substantial regional difference By 'equalizing' 96% of humanity as 'the same'? > and that, at least outside STEM, the EU system is more accessible for those with full-time careers, who do not plan to work in academia. You keep claiming that, but you haven't shown anything.
mylons 5y ago
I’m mostly familiar with STEM PhD’s, and do not have one. However, my understanding is coursework is over once the PhD starts and you’ve earned a masters. You’re in the lab doing research on your thesis, and often teaching classes.
- nautilius 5y ago
  That's not accurate. 'ABD' (all but dissertation) [1] is an an important milestone because you are not typically done with coursework when starting out (in the US). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_but_dissertation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_but_dissertation

agentcoops 5y ago

I read your post in good faith and respond in kind. There are certainly very important details I did not elaborate in a quick post, but I assume you understand that the question under consideration is how someone pursuing a full-time career might partake in (non-STEM) higher academic degrees. While I regret using the expression “rest of the world”, I don’t believe it’s just hyperbole to say that this is easier in Europe. You are correct that people pursue different paths after US PhDs. However, as you say, a US PhD contains heavy course work and (outside STEM, where I have few data points since most researchers I knew dropped out to work for startups/FAANG) the average full-time program duration is only going up. There are exceptions of course, but admissions are centered around a personal scholarly narrative rather than a particular project and pricing is generally under the expectation of grant funding. Again, there are further details we could write books about, but I don’t think this is far from a general picture of US PhDs in the humanities and social sciences. In Europe, MAs and PhDs are separated as many have noted. I know most about the UK context, where MAs are affordable and can be taken part-time, completed in two years with one class a semester. PhDs, which are research only (I agree with the you and would indeed change “writing” to “research” if I wrote the post again), can also be done part-time over eight years for a very nominal cost (about 5k a year for an international student). Systems have become more standardized in the EU after the Bologna accords towards the more professionalized three year track, but I’ve known PhD students in Germany to take 10+ years writing their dissertations. Unless policies have changed in the past few years, the same goes for France. Again, comparing post-graduate education between US and EU, let alone between EU countries, is a complex topic. I have attempted only to show that there is a substantial regional difference and that, at least outside STEM, the EU system is more accessible for those with full-time careers, who do not plan to work in academia.

nautilius 5y ago
> I read your post in good faith and respond in kind. Sure, sounds good. Let's do this! > I don’t believe it’s just hyperbole to say that this is easier in Europe You haven't brought any evidence to the table except your personal opinion, which is, as you notice yourself, often only crudely argued in your post. > However, as you say, a US PhD contains heavy course work and (outside STEM, where I have few data points since most researchers I knew dropped out to work for startups/FAANG) It's still pretty light compared to what you do at many European universities up to the MSc level. Hence less (or no) course work in many European universities after your MSc. > the average full-time program duration is only going up. Ok. > There are exceptions of course, but admissions are centered around a personal scholarly narrative rather than a particular project and pricing is generally under the expectation of grant funding. Again, there are further details we could write books about, but I don’t think this is far from a general picture of US PhDs in the humanities and social sciences. So far I don't see any contradiction to what I wrote. > the more professionalized three year track You still haven't discussed what you even mean with 'professionalized'. Is a non-three-year degree unprofessional? > I’ve known PhD students in Germany to take 10+ years writing their dissertations. Absolutely, many of them in full time positions doing that research. > Unless policies have changed in the past few years, the same goes for France. My information is different. > agentcoops 8 hours ago | parent | context | flag | on: Ask HN: I'm interested in so many disciplines, but... I read your post in good faith and respond in kind. There are certainly very important details I did not elaborate in a quick post, but I assume you understand that the question under consideration is how someone pursuing a full-time career might partake in (non-STEM) higher academic degrees. While I regret using the expression “rest of the world”, I don’t believe it’s just hyperbole to say that this is easier in Europe. You are correct that people pursue different paths after US PhDs. However, as you say, a US PhD contains heavy course work and (outside STEM, where I have few data points since most researchers I knew dropped out to work for startups/FAANG) the average full-time program duration is only going up. There are exceptions of course, but admissions are centered around a personal scholarly narrative rather than a particular project and pricing is generally under the expectation of grant funding. Again, there are further details we could write books about, but I don’t think this is far from a general picture of US PhDs in the humanities and social sciences. In Europe, MAs and PhDs are separated as many have noted. I know most about the UK context, where MAs are affordable and can be taken part-time, completed in two years with one class a semester. PhDs, which are research only (I agree with the you and would indeed change “writing” to “research” if I wrote the post again), can also be done part-time over eight years for a very nominal cost (about 5k a year for an international student). Systems have become more standardized in the EU after the Bologna accords towards the more professionalized three year track, but I’ve known PhD students in Germany to take 10+ years writing their dissertations. Unless policies have changed in the past few years, the same goes for France. > Again, comparing post-graduate education between US and EU, let alone between EU countries, is a complex topic. I know that; you're the one who's presenting it as simple. > I have attempted only to show that there is a substantial regional difference By 'equalizing' 96% of humanity as 'the same'? > and that, at least outside STEM, the EU system is more accessible for those with full-time careers, who do not plan to work in academia. You keep claiming that, but you haven't shown anything.

mylons 5y ago

I’m mostly familiar with STEM PhD’s, and do not have one. However, my understanding is coursework is over once the PhD starts and you’ve earned a masters. You’re in the lab doing research on your thesis, and often teaching classes.

nautilius 5y ago
That's not accurate. 'ABD' (all but dissertation) [1] is an an important milestone because you are not typically done with coursework when starting out (in the US). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_but_dissertation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_but_dissertation