6 ms·

Very insightful comment. Would you mind to explain why you disagree?

blueblob 5y ago
Not the parent commenter, but I agree with the sentiment. The selected portion of the earlier comment has multiple pieces that I disagree with: 1) A PhD isn't about writing, and 2) you are not expected to become a professor once you get a PhD in the US. A PhD isn't really about writing, it's about research. Writing is merely the means of demonstrating that you know how to do research. The way that you break something down involves finding a gap in understanding or a portion of a problem that has not been addressed. Then you find an insight that leads to potential solutions to address the gap. Then you run experiments based around the insight. It is fundamentally a way of thinking, not a way of writing. That's why it's a Doctorate of Philosophy. The actual topic that you cover for your thesis is not as important as the demonstration that you know how to think about research. It's moderately unlikely that you will be working on the same problem in industry. It's commonplace, at least in engineering programs, to ask whether you're going to go into industry or academia. Research positions in industry typically go to PhDs or Masters with a lot of experience. It is much harder to break into the research world without a PhD in the US. So I believe the original statement: > a full-time professionalized pursuit under the assumption you will be a professor is overly specific. Your future could be a professor, a researcher/scientist, or an entrepreneur.
- agentcoops 5y ago
  Yes, completely agreed with your corrections. Research is really the term I should have used and, as I clarified in a response above, it’s certainly true that, especially in STEM, there are at least industrial and academic tracks. I would just clarify that my only intention was to address the particular case of someone currently working in tech who would like to additionally pursue non-STEM studies for their own sake. In that case, rare but that I wish were not so, the part-time, dissertation-only PhD programs of many European nations (Germany and the UK in particular) are, on average, a better fit.
  - nautilius 5y ago
    > part-time, dissertation-only PhD programs It's just getting worse and worse. I believe you're trying to argue in good faith but maybe you should just stick to stuff you know about. There is nothing about 'dissertation only' that makes these programs 'part time'. I'd argue that a good German or French university (I would guess the UK too, but I know less about that system) has more comprehensive and more stringent coursework to the MSc level than most US universities have for their PhD level. They don't do additional coursework because they're 'done'. Talk to those PhD students (and their advisors) about whether they consider that work 'part time'.
    - agentcoops 5y ago
      My last response to you as you’re obviously not arguing in good faith. The sentence that offended you is very simple. PhD programs in the UK are almost universally dissertation-only. While full-time you are expected to finish in three to four years, you can enroll part-time and finish in eight. The latter path is intended for those who are self-funded and typically already working full-time in whatever profession. An MA or MSc, with as or more stringent coursework than in the US, would be required in either case, but the MA can also be completed part-time. Look at the website of almost any English PhD program. Again, my only argument is that the EU offers more options for advanced studies alongside another career than the US, which is something I have firsthand experience with.
nautilius 5y ago
Because every single statement is wrong. > In the US, the thought is that if you're doing a PhD, say, it's a full-time professionalized pursuit You're still a student, still taking classes. > under the assumption you will be a professor; Simply not true, you could pursue all sorts of jobs. > in the rest of the world Do I really need to comment that? Hint: outside the US border, there is more than one country. Germany alone has 16 different educational systems. > a PhD is essentially an apprenticeship in writing No, it's about research. > under a mentor for however long it takes you, Limited to 3 years e.g. in France or Italy. > often with no aim (i.e. career) other than that writing itself. Man, that's just bullshit, I don't even know where to start.
- agentcoops 5y ago
  I read your post in good faith and respond in kind. There are certainly very important details I did not elaborate in a quick post, but I assume you understand that the question under consideration is how someone pursuing a full-time career might partake in (non-STEM) higher academic degrees. While I regret using the expression “rest of the world”, I don’t believe it’s just hyperbole to say that this is easier in Europe. You are correct that people pursue different paths after US PhDs. However, as you say, a US PhD contains heavy course work and (outside STEM, where I have few data points since most researchers I knew dropped out to work for startups/FAANG) the average full-time program duration is only going up. There are exceptions of course, but admissions are centered around a personal scholarly narrative rather than a particular project and pricing is generally under the expectation of grant funding. Again, there are further details we could write books about, but I don’t think this is far from a general picture of US PhDs in the humanities and social sciences. In Europe, MAs and PhDs are separated as many have noted. I know most about the UK context, where MAs are affordable and can be taken part-time, completed in two years with one class a semester. PhDs, which are research only (I agree with the you and would indeed change “writing” to “research” if I wrote the post again), can also be done part-time over eight years for a very nominal cost (about 5k a year for an international student). Systems have become more standardized in the EU after the Bologna accords towards the more professionalized three year track, but I’ve known PhD students in Germany to take 10+ years writing their dissertations. Unless policies have changed in the past few years, the same goes for France. Again, comparing post-graduate education between US and EU, let alone between EU countries, is a complex topic. I have attempted only to show that there is a substantial regional difference and that, at least outside STEM, the EU system is more accessible for those with full-time careers, who do not plan to work in academia.

Not the parent commenter, but I agree with the sentiment. The selected portion of the earlier comment has multiple pieces that I disagree with: 1) A PhD isn't about writing, and 2) you are not expected to become a professor once you get a PhD in the US. A PhD isn't really about writing, it's about research. Writing is merely the means of demonstrating that you know how to do research. The way that you break something down involves finding a gap in understanding or a portion of a problem that has not been addressed. Then you find an insight that leads to potential solutions to address the gap. Then you run experiments based around the insight. It is fundamentally a way of thinking, not a way of writing. That's why it's a Doctorate of Philosophy. The actual topic that you cover for your thesis is not as important as the demonstration that you know how to think about research. It's moderately unlikely that you will be working on the same problem in industry. It's commonplace, at least in engineering programs, to ask whether you're going to go into industry or academia. Research positions in industry typically go to PhDs or Masters with a lot of experience. It is much harder to break into the research world without a PhD in the US. So I believe the original statement: > a full-time professionalized pursuit under the assumption you will be a professor is overly specific. Your future could be a professor, a researcher/scientist, or an entrepreneur.

agentcoops 5y ago
Yes, completely agreed with your corrections. Research is really the term I should have used and, as I clarified in a response above, it’s certainly true that, especially in STEM, there are at least industrial and academic tracks. I would just clarify that my only intention was to address the particular case of someone currently working in tech who would like to additionally pursue non-STEM studies for their own sake. In that case, rare but that I wish were not so, the part-time, dissertation-only PhD programs of many European nations (Germany and the UK in particular) are, on average, a better fit.
- nautilius 5y ago
  > part-time, dissertation-only PhD programs It's just getting worse and worse. I believe you're trying to argue in good faith but maybe you should just stick to stuff you know about. There is nothing about 'dissertation only' that makes these programs 'part time'. I'd argue that a good German or French university (I would guess the UK too, but I know less about that system) has more comprehensive and more stringent coursework to the MSc level than most US universities have for their PhD level. They don't do additional coursework because they're 'done'. Talk to those PhD students (and their advisors) about whether they consider that work 'part time'.
  - agentcoops 5y ago
    My last response to you as you’re obviously not arguing in good faith. The sentence that offended you is very simple. PhD programs in the UK are almost universally dissertation-only. While full-time you are expected to finish in three to four years, you can enroll part-time and finish in eight. The latter path is intended for those who are self-funded and typically already working full-time in whatever profession. An MA or MSc, with as or more stringent coursework than in the US, would be required in either case, but the MA can also be completed part-time. Look at the website of almost any English PhD program. Again, my only argument is that the EU offers more options for advanced studies alongside another career than the US, which is something I have firsthand experience with.

nautilius 5y ago

Because every single statement is wrong. > In the US, the thought is that if you're doing a PhD, say, it's a full-time professionalized pursuit You're still a student, still taking classes. > under the assumption you will be a professor; Simply not true, you could pursue all sorts of jobs. > in the rest of the world Do I really need to comment that? Hint: outside the US border, there is more than one country. Germany alone has 16 different educational systems. > a PhD is essentially an apprenticeship in writing No, it's about research. > under a mentor for however long it takes you, Limited to 3 years e.g. in France or Italy. > often with no aim (i.e. career) other than that writing itself. Man, that's just bullshit, I don't even know where to start.

agentcoops 5y ago
I read your post in good faith and respond in kind. There are certainly very important details I did not elaborate in a quick post, but I assume you understand that the question under consideration is how someone pursuing a full-time career might partake in (non-STEM) higher academic degrees. While I regret using the expression “rest of the world”, I don’t believe it’s just hyperbole to say that this is easier in Europe. You are correct that people pursue different paths after US PhDs. However, as you say, a US PhD contains heavy course work and (outside STEM, where I have few data points since most researchers I knew dropped out to work for startups/FAANG) the average full-time program duration is only going up. There are exceptions of course, but admissions are centered around a personal scholarly narrative rather than a particular project and pricing is generally under the expectation of grant funding. Again, there are further details we could write books about, but I don’t think this is far from a general picture of US PhDs in the humanities and social sciences. In Europe, MAs and PhDs are separated as many have noted. I know most about the UK context, where MAs are affordable and can be taken part-time, completed in two years with one class a semester. PhDs, which are research only (I agree with the you and would indeed change “writing” to “research” if I wrote the post again), can also be done part-time over eight years for a very nominal cost (about 5k a year for an international student). Systems have become more standardized in the EU after the Bologna accords towards the more professionalized three year track, but I’ve known PhD students in Germany to take 10+ years writing their dissertations. Unless policies have changed in the past few years, the same goes for France. Again, comparing post-graduate education between US and EU, let alone between EU countries, is a complex topic. I have attempted only to show that there is a substantial regional difference and that, at least outside STEM, the EU system is more accessible for those with full-time careers, who do not plan to work in academia.