5 ms·

PCIe Ethernet in Thunderbolt docks (how to avoid Realtek)

46 points by microtonal 5y ago

SigmundA 5y ago
I have a Kensington SD5700T Thunderbolt 4 dock with my 2019 Intel MacBook Pro running two 4k monitors at 60hz and 1gb ethernet and various usb peripherals. All works pretty well now days but the ethernet had issues when I first got it, would not renew dhcp lease and just stop, and it is Realtek over USB. Some MacOS update along the line fixed that issue and long with various other issues with progressive MacOS release. The setup was pretty unstable at first with kernel panics once in a while related to video drivers waking up, but now days is pretty solid with a single cable docking solution. Will probably move to M1 Mac at some point and something like Caldigit TS4 with 2.5gb PCIe ethernet.
- lostlogin 5y ago
  I’ve used the Sonnet and Qnap thunderbolt to 10gbe adaptors on an Intel Mac and they both worked great. After being so used to wifi, it was just so nice to use.
tomalpha 5y ago
The original blog post that this is based (verbatim?) on is here: https://khronokernel.github.io/macos/2021/11/22/PCIE-ETHERNET.html https://khronokernel.github.io/macos/2021/11/22/PCIE-ETHERNE... Besides being the original source, it loads much faster (at least for me) and also doesn't have the amazon affiliate links sprinkled through it.
- jonathanlydall 5y ago
  Also, original article's heading includes "macOS", which is also relevant since these problems don't seem to affect Windows users. Although anecdotal, I've been using a Dell WD15 dock which uses a Realtek 8153 network adapter with my Windows 10 laptop for years without issue. Not to say that I don't think Realtek seems to be lacking, but I think it's worth mentioning that the problems experienced by macOS users do not seem to happen to Windows users.
  - stephen_g 5y ago
    It depends on what you’re doing. I’ve never had a problem with USB ethernet adapters (I expect most of them Realtek) on macOS, but I generally haven’t been trying to push sustained gigabit speeds for long while sharing the bus with other devices. While driver quality is mentioned, sustained speed seems to be a big part of what they’re talking about (hardware offloading, bus bandwidth, etc.).
DIVx0 5y ago
A bit off topic but I’ve seen a few posts about thunderbolt docks, but what I really need is a thunderbolt KVM that can drive a 5k (or more) display between at least two MacBooks. Does anyone have a recommendation? My searches have not been fruitful.
- pfyra 5y ago
  Not quite what you are asking for, but perhaps display-switch[0] can help. I'm too cheap to get a KVM which supports 2 4k monitors so I'm using display-switch instead. Works wonders. [0] https://github.com/haimgel/display-switch https://github.com/haimgel/display-switch
  - tym0 5y ago
    What USB Switch are you using? I have yet to find one without awful reviews on Amazon.
    - pfyra 5y ago
      I do it the really, really cheap way.. I have my keyboard and mouse connected to a USB hub and switch the USB cable between the computers. I have a USB cable connected to each computer and physically switch which one is connected to the hub.
      - tym0 5y ago
        That is my current workaround but my hub's cable is really suffering from it.
- eddiezane 5y ago
  Maybe this ? You could also email Wendell on the site and get his thoughts. https://store.level1techs.com/products/14-kvm-switch-single-monitor-2computer https://store.level1techs.com/products/14-kvm-switch-single-...
lobochrome 5y ago
The CalDigit was really problematic for me with multiple units over the years… Used it with Intel Macs and M1 Macs. Displays not waking up, Kernel Panics, etc. I’m now using a ThinkPad dock - which is fine!? I mean it is not great, since it sometimes too needs to be hot plugged but at least no kernel panics.
- uuyi 5y ago
  Similar problems. Weirdly a Dell WD19TB works fine. I decided after arguing with this pile of junk for the best part of a year to scrap it and buy a desktop mac and stop the suffering from persisting any further. My laptop was docked 95% of the time anyway.
  - lobochrome 5y ago
    I went down that road for a while too and used a Mac Mini M1. It was really nice - but then I realized how bad iPads are for working compared to a laptop and switched back.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  The problem with Thunderbolt is that it's essentially PCI-Express, so much closer to the hardware & kernel and a malfunction is more likely to lead to a crash, especially considering hot-pluggable PCI-E is relatively new and not as battle-tested. USB in contrast has been built from the ground up to be hot-pluggable and there's been decades of real-world testing with terrible manufacturers and people not "safely removing" devices, so most of the bugs would've been ironed out. Your device may malfunction, but it's unlikely to lead to a full system crash.
- lowbloodsugar 5y ago
  Not to say your problems aren't valid, but counter data point: I have three CalDigit TS3 Plus, youngest is 8 months, oldest is 2+ years, and never had a problem. I have one intel and two M1 Macs. I did used to have kernel panics on my Intel, but these were T2 chip related and I've had no problems since moving to BigSur. (Could have been T2+TS3 I suppose).
mschuster91 5y ago
Alternatively, you can grab an Akitio Node series external enclosure and plug in any supported PCI Express (ethernet) card. They provide 60-ish watts PD back to your MacBook. Personally, I run a BlackMagic Decklink Quad HDMI card in one, without any issues regarding hotplug.
zajio1am 5y ago
From the performance PoV, PCIe/Thunderbolt dock is clearly better than USB-C, but there are also other factors: 1) Thunderbolt dock requires Thunderbolt port, while USB-C dock works with just much more common USB-C + DP alternate mode port. 2) USB-C docks just work, while Thunderbolt docks often require magic steps to enable them (like changing options in BIOS). 3) USB-C is relatively secure, while PCIe is just a gaping security hole unless IOMMU is used and configured. I am not sure how common that is.
- hatware 5y ago
  Thunderbolt also comes with licensing, those docks aren't cheap. IMO, 20% of folks using thunderbolt for the bandwidth actually need it, the other 80% are flexing. If you want to take advantage of those speeds, you also need to drop money on fast drives. It adds up quick.
  - smachiz 5y ago
    No, it doesn't. Intel stopped charging licensing fees a while back: https://bit-tech.net/news/tech/peripherals/intel-thunderbolt-3-licensing/1/ https://bit-tech.net/news/tech/peripherals/intel-thunderbolt... If you needed 4K/60Hz you need thunderbolt not USBC until recently. It is hardly flexing, they aren't that much more expensive - and provide significantly more bandwidth.
    - hatware 5y ago
      I call it flexing specifically because most folks don't need that bandwidth. Thunderbolt docks are way, way overpriced if there's no licensing fees anymore.
      - crest 5y ago
        Modern UIs with all the bloated animations are painful to use with the 30Hz limit imposed on by most USB(-C) to HDMI or DisplayPort adapters. The USB-C alt modes except Thunderbolt just lack the raw bandwidth for 4K@60Hz.
unixhero 5y ago
My brand new Lenovo P40 39" 5K monitor has 1GBIT ethernet in the USB-hub. Max throughoutput I get is 300mbit per second over this with a thunderbolt/usb-c cable in between, I find this laughable.
- smachiz 5y ago
  I managed to get 1Gbps (minus overhead) with the Dell version of the display. But it is highly variable based on what else my CPU is doing, which is my experience broadly with USB ethernet.
  - unixhero 5y ago
    Anectotally, the 49" ultra wide curve displays from Philips with ethernet in the base at work provide real gbit throughoutput.
usr1106 5y ago
Slighty related submission with 508 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30911598 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30911598
exabrial 5y ago
> Thunderbolt 3 Express Dock HD Listed as: Intel i210 > Thunderbolt 3 Dock Pro Listed as: Thunderbolt 3 Dock Pro So interestingly enough, we have both of these deployed around our organization. We did extensive testing with both of them using iperf3 and I can personally confirm they *BOTH* will push sustained gigabit speeds. [Test platforms are various best-generation x86 16" MacBook Pros] On both of these, what doesn't work on these is Dual HDMI with an (otherwise reliable) USB-C cable (the 'pro' only has a display port). We instead completely ignore the built-in HDMI/Displayport and use an additional `Plugable Thunderbolt 3 to Dual HDMI` plugged into the downstream Thunderbolt port on the dock, which works flawlessly. > Corsair TBT100 Thunderbolt™ 3 Dock We have two of these deployed as it worked on the bench, but it has operational issues. It will push sustained gigabit with iperf3, and we were delighted to see the built-in dual HDMI works without an external adapter. Unfortunately, once we deployed them, we found they "crash" once or twice a day. This causes the user's monitors to go blank (OSX thinks they were unplugged) and disconnects the ethernet during the process. Furthermore, we were testing writing to the sd card with rsync and you can actually get OSX to BSOD while running two monitors, iperf3, and using the SD card. I would avoid this dock like dysentery.
- Aea 5y ago
  That's interesting, with the OWC Thunderbolt 3 Dock Pro (we have about four deployed) they all originally worked at the 10 GbE speed for us, then we had some sporadic issues dropping down to 1 -- and now the ethernet does not work at all. On a mix of x86 and ARM Macbook Pros.

46 points by microtonal 5y ago

I have a Kensington SD5700T Thunderbolt 4 dock with my 2019 Intel MacBook Pro running two 4k monitors at 60hz and 1gb ethernet and various usb peripherals. All works pretty well now days but the ethernet had issues when I first got it, would not renew dhcp lease and just stop, and it is Realtek over USB. Some MacOS update along the line fixed that issue and long with various other issues with progressive MacOS release. The setup was pretty unstable at first with kernel panics once in a while related to video drivers waking up, but now days is pretty solid with a single cable docking solution. Will probably move to M1 Mac at some point and something like Caldigit TS4 with 2.5gb PCIe ethernet.

lostlogin 5y ago
I’ve used the Sonnet and Qnap thunderbolt to 10gbe adaptors on an Intel Mac and they both worked great. After being so used to wifi, it was just so nice to use.

tomalpha 5y ago

The original blog post that this is based (verbatim?) on is here: https://khronokernel.github.io/macos/2021/11/22/PCIE-ETHERNET.html https://khronokernel.github.io/macos/2021/11/22/PCIE-ETHERNE... Besides being the original source, it loads much faster (at least for me) and also doesn't have the amazon affiliate links sprinkled through it.

jonathanlydall 5y ago
Also, original article's heading includes "macOS", which is also relevant since these problems don't seem to affect Windows users. Although anecdotal, I've been using a Dell WD15 dock which uses a Realtek 8153 network adapter with my Windows 10 laptop for years without issue. Not to say that I don't think Realtek seems to be lacking, but I think it's worth mentioning that the problems experienced by macOS users do not seem to happen to Windows users.
- stephen_g 5y ago
  It depends on what you’re doing. I’ve never had a problem with USB ethernet adapters (I expect most of them Realtek) on macOS, but I generally haven’t been trying to push sustained gigabit speeds for long while sharing the bus with other devices. While driver quality is mentioned, sustained speed seems to be a big part of what they’re talking about (hardware offloading, bus bandwidth, etc.).

DIVx0 5y ago

A bit off topic but I’ve seen a few posts about thunderbolt docks, but what I really need is a thunderbolt KVM that can drive a 5k (or more) display between at least two MacBooks. Does anyone have a recommendation? My searches have not been fruitful.

pfyra 5y ago
Not quite what you are asking for, but perhaps display-switch[0] can help. I'm too cheap to get a KVM which supports 2 4k monitors so I'm using display-switch instead. Works wonders. [0] https://github.com/haimgel/display-switch https://github.com/haimgel/display-switch
- tym0 5y ago
  What USB Switch are you using? I have yet to find one without awful reviews on Amazon.
  - pfyra 5y ago
    I do it the really, really cheap way.. I have my keyboard and mouse connected to a USB hub and switch the USB cable between the computers. I have a USB cable connected to each computer and physically switch which one is connected to the hub.
    - tym0 5y ago
      That is my current workaround but my hub's cable is really suffering from it.
eddiezane 5y ago
Maybe this ? You could also email Wendell on the site and get his thoughts. https://store.level1techs.com/products/14-kvm-switch-single-monitor-2computer https://store.level1techs.com/products/14-kvm-switch-single-...

lobochrome 5y ago

The CalDigit was really problematic for me with multiple units over the years… Used it with Intel Macs and M1 Macs. Displays not waking up, Kernel Panics, etc. I’m now using a ThinkPad dock - which is fine!? I mean it is not great, since it sometimes too needs to be hot plugged but at least no kernel panics.

uuyi 5y ago
Similar problems. Weirdly a Dell WD19TB works fine. I decided after arguing with this pile of junk for the best part of a year to scrap it and buy a desktop mac and stop the suffering from persisting any further. My laptop was docked 95% of the time anyway.
- lobochrome 5y ago
  I went down that road for a while too and used a Mac Mini M1. It was really nice - but then I realized how bad iPads are for working compared to a laptop and switched back.
Nextgrid 5y ago
The problem with Thunderbolt is that it's essentially PCI-Express, so much closer to the hardware & kernel and a malfunction is more likely to lead to a crash, especially considering hot-pluggable PCI-E is relatively new and not as battle-tested. USB in contrast has been built from the ground up to be hot-pluggable and there's been decades of real-world testing with terrible manufacturers and people not "safely removing" devices, so most of the bugs would've been ironed out. Your device may malfunction, but it's unlikely to lead to a full system crash.
lowbloodsugar 5y ago
Not to say your problems aren't valid, but counter data point: I have three CalDigit TS3 Plus, youngest is 8 months, oldest is 2+ years, and never had a problem. I have one intel and two M1 Macs. I did used to have kernel panics on my Intel, but these were T2 chip related and I've had no problems since moving to BigSur. (Could have been T2+TS3 I suppose).

mschuster91 5y ago

Alternatively, you can grab an Akitio Node series external enclosure and plug in any supported PCI Express (ethernet) card. They provide 60-ish watts PD back to your MacBook. Personally, I run a BlackMagic Decklink Quad HDMI card in one, without any issues regarding hotplug.

zajio1am 5y ago

From the performance PoV, PCIe/Thunderbolt dock is clearly better than USB-C, but there are also other factors: 1) Thunderbolt dock requires Thunderbolt port, while USB-C dock works with just much more common USB-C + DP alternate mode port. 2) USB-C docks just work, while Thunderbolt docks often require magic steps to enable them (like changing options in BIOS). 3) USB-C is relatively secure, while PCIe is just a gaping security hole unless IOMMU is used and configured. I am not sure how common that is.

hatware 5y ago
Thunderbolt also comes with licensing, those docks aren't cheap. IMO, 20% of folks using thunderbolt for the bandwidth actually need it, the other 80% are flexing. If you want to take advantage of those speeds, you also need to drop money on fast drives. It adds up quick.
- smachiz 5y ago
  No, it doesn't. Intel stopped charging licensing fees a while back: https://bit-tech.net/news/tech/peripherals/intel-thunderbolt-3-licensing/1/ https://bit-tech.net/news/tech/peripherals/intel-thunderbolt... If you needed 4K/60Hz you need thunderbolt not USBC until recently. It is hardly flexing, they aren't that much more expensive - and provide significantly more bandwidth.
  - hatware 5y ago
    I call it flexing specifically because most folks don't need that bandwidth. Thunderbolt docks are way, way overpriced if there's no licensing fees anymore.
    - crest 5y ago
      Modern UIs with all the bloated animations are painful to use with the 30Hz limit imposed on by most USB(-C) to HDMI or DisplayPort adapters. The USB-C alt modes except Thunderbolt just lack the raw bandwidth for 4K@60Hz.

unixhero 5y ago

My brand new Lenovo P40 39" 5K monitor has 1GBIT ethernet in the USB-hub. Max throughoutput I get is 300mbit per second over this with a thunderbolt/usb-c cable in between, I find this laughable.

smachiz 5y ago
I managed to get 1Gbps (minus overhead) with the Dell version of the display. But it is highly variable based on what else my CPU is doing, which is my experience broadly with USB ethernet.
- unixhero 5y ago
  Anectotally, the 49" ultra wide curve displays from Philips with ethernet in the base at work provide real gbit throughoutput.

usr1106 5y ago

Slighty related submission with 508 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30911598 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30911598

exabrial 5y ago

> Thunderbolt 3 Express Dock HD Listed as: Intel i210 > Thunderbolt 3 Dock Pro Listed as: Thunderbolt 3 Dock Pro So interestingly enough, we have both of these deployed around our organization. We did extensive testing with both of them using iperf3 and I can personally confirm they *BOTH* will push sustained gigabit speeds. [Test platforms are various best-generation x86 16" MacBook Pros] On both of these, what doesn't work on these is Dual HDMI with an (otherwise reliable) USB-C cable (the 'pro' only has a display port). We instead completely ignore the built-in HDMI/Displayport and use an additional `Plugable Thunderbolt 3 to Dual HDMI` plugged into the downstream Thunderbolt port on the dock, which works flawlessly. > Corsair TBT100 Thunderbolt™ 3 Dock We have two of these deployed as it worked on the bench, but it has operational issues. It will push sustained gigabit with iperf3, and we were delighted to see the built-in dual HDMI works without an external adapter. Unfortunately, once we deployed them, we found they "crash" once or twice a day. This causes the user's monitors to go blank (OSX thinks they were unplugged) and disconnects the ethernet during the process. Furthermore, we were testing writing to the sd card with rsync and you can actually get OSX to BSOD while running two monitors, iperf3, and using the SD card. I would avoid this dock like dysentery.

Aea 5y ago
That's interesting, with the OWC Thunderbolt 3 Dock Pro (we have about four deployed) they all originally worked at the 10 GbE speed for us, then we had some sporadic issues dropping down to 1 -- and now the ethernet does not work at all. On a mix of x86 and ARM Macbook Pros.