5 ms·

Michael Moorcock: “I think Tolkien was a crypto-fascist” (2015)

9 points by VieEnCode 4y ago

coldtea 4y ago
>“I think he’s a crypto-fascist,” says Moorcock, laughing. “In Tolkien, everyone’s in their place and happy to be there. It's called a traditionalist. But of course in 2022 everything has to be called "fascist" or this weasel word, proto-fascist ("it's not fascist per se, in any historical sense of the word, but we still don't like it, so let's invoke Godwin and call it proto-fascist").
- leephillips 4y ago
  I guess Moorcock was just ahead of his time.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    The interview is from 2015, so not so much...
- ajross 4y ago
  That's true, but not a ding on Moorcock here. This usage to refer to right wing social policy is common on the activist left, and this is an interview in New Statesman. He's speaking his own dialect to his own people, and anyone familiar with that discourse is going to know what he means (that Tolkien in the modern world would be a friend to the bougies and not the downtrodden, clearly not that Tolkien was a fan of 1930's fascist regimes). And... Moorcock is right as far as it goes. Tolkien revolutionized worldbuilding in fiction and inspired generations. But throughout the corpus the one theme that is conspicuously absent is "social progress". The only way to make things better in Middle Earth is to try to go back to the way things were, in vain attempts to recall the glories of Numenor, or Beleriand, or Valinor. No one fixes anything. No one improves anything. No one even tries, really. From the perspective of a modern reader, especially a leftist one, that's really quite jarring.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    >(that Tolkien in the modern world would be a friend to the bougies and not the downtrodden, clearly not that Tolkien was a fan of 1930's fascist regimes). I know the dialect, but that's not some objective fact, just an interpretation from a particular political viewpoint. I'd say it's the reverse: Tolkien would be more of a friend to the downtrodden and their ideology, and not to the popular causes of the aspirational classes of the 10%. It's the downtrodden that's fashionable to talk down when you're in the modern "left" (as opposed to traditional left, who was all for working class people).
    - ajross 4y ago
      Again, you seem to be making a broader political point that I don't think is appropriate. Moorcock was talking about literature here. Even if you disagree with contemporary leftist thought, you'd agree that it's worth reading books dealing with the ideas, right? Same principle. Moorcock isn't saying "don't read LotR", he's pointing out that it's a thematically conservative trilogy.
      - coldtea 4y ago
        >Moorcock isn't saying "don't read LotR", he's pointing out that it's a thematically conservative trilogy. I'm down with that, but "proto-fascist" is strong. Conservative != fascist. Many conservatives in fact fought the actual fascists...
- blaser-waffle 4y ago
  In the 2020s if you do not pander as hard as possible then you are a fascist
jleyank 4y ago
Context. Tolkien endured ww I and it’s horrors. When he wrote of returning to the world he left, he knew it was impossible IRL. That time had gone, never to return. One could argue that both Moorcock and Tolkien ended up with the same world, with the Elves and Dwarves being gone, Men as the only players and the spirit of technology (or Saruman reformed) diffused everywhere. With politics, with VR, perhaps future people will look back on the Matrix as documentaries about the struggle with reactionary “realists” trying to disconnect people from the world. The world is too similar to the 1930’s and people should be frightened by that.
exfascist 4y ago
zabzonk 4y ago
> We go there and back, to where we started. There’s no escape, nothing will ever change and nobody will ever break out of this well-ordered world.” Well, this is simply not true - Frodo and his friends do go on, through the Shire, to Valinor. And having devoured a lot of Moorcock in my youth I must say that in my old age I prefer well-written twee (if that is what Tolkein is) to pulp.

9 points by VieEnCode 4y ago

>“I think he’s a crypto-fascist,” says Moorcock, laughing. “In Tolkien, everyone’s in their place and happy to be there. It's called a traditionalist. But of course in 2022 everything has to be called "fascist" or this weasel word, proto-fascist ("it's not fascist per se, in any historical sense of the word, but we still don't like it, so let's invoke Godwin and call it proto-fascist").

leephillips 4y ago
I guess Moorcock was just ahead of his time.
- coldtea 4y ago
  The interview is from 2015, so not so much...
ajross 4y ago
That's true, but not a ding on Moorcock here. This usage to refer to right wing social policy is common on the activist left, and this is an interview in New Statesman. He's speaking his own dialect to his own people, and anyone familiar with that discourse is going to know what he means (that Tolkien in the modern world would be a friend to the bougies and not the downtrodden, clearly not that Tolkien was a fan of 1930's fascist regimes). And... Moorcock is right as far as it goes. Tolkien revolutionized worldbuilding in fiction and inspired generations. But throughout the corpus the one theme that is conspicuously absent is "social progress". The only way to make things better in Middle Earth is to try to go back to the way things were, in vain attempts to recall the glories of Numenor, or Beleriand, or Valinor. No one fixes anything. No one improves anything. No one even tries, really. From the perspective of a modern reader, especially a leftist one, that's really quite jarring.
- coldtea 4y ago
  >(that Tolkien in the modern world would be a friend to the bougies and not the downtrodden, clearly not that Tolkien was a fan of 1930's fascist regimes). I know the dialect, but that's not some objective fact, just an interpretation from a particular political viewpoint. I'd say it's the reverse: Tolkien would be more of a friend to the downtrodden and their ideology, and not to the popular causes of the aspirational classes of the 10%. It's the downtrodden that's fashionable to talk down when you're in the modern "left" (as opposed to traditional left, who was all for working class people).
  - ajross 4y ago
    Again, you seem to be making a broader political point that I don't think is appropriate. Moorcock was talking about literature here. Even if you disagree with contemporary leftist thought, you'd agree that it's worth reading books dealing with the ideas, right? Same principle. Moorcock isn't saying "don't read LotR", he's pointing out that it's a thematically conservative trilogy.
    - coldtea 4y ago
      >Moorcock isn't saying "don't read LotR", he's pointing out that it's a thematically conservative trilogy. I'm down with that, but "proto-fascist" is strong. Conservative != fascist. Many conservatives in fact fought the actual fascists...
blaser-waffle 4y ago
In the 2020s if you do not pander as hard as possible then you are a fascist

jleyank 4y ago

Context. Tolkien endured ww I and it’s horrors. When he wrote of returning to the world he left, he knew it was impossible IRL. That time had gone, never to return. One could argue that both Moorcock and Tolkien ended up with the same world, with the Elves and Dwarves being gone, Men as the only players and the spirit of technology (or Saruman reformed) diffused everywhere. With politics, with VR, perhaps future people will look back on the Matrix as documentaries about the struggle with reactionary “realists” trying to disconnect people from the world. The world is too similar to the 1930’s and people should be frightened by that.

exfascist 4y ago

zabzonk 4y ago

> We go there and back, to where we started. There’s no escape, nothing will ever change and nobody will ever break out of this well-ordered world.” Well, this is simply not true - Frodo and his friends do go on, through the Shire, to Valinor. And having devoured a lot of Moorcock in my youth I must say that in my old age I prefer well-written twee (if that is what Tolkein is) to pulp.