4 ms·

> Second of all the human race does not have some over-arching goals we need to meet like a business. It is or should be like a club run for the benefit of the

> Second of all the human race does not have some over-arching goals we need to meet like a business. It is or should be like a club run for the benefit of the members: let's create good conditions for people. We can tolerate a bit of complexity and diversity. Individuals and groups (including businesses) do have goals though, and it seems natural that some of them feel that they're being thwarted in their pursuit of those goals by expectations that they accommodate every little minority (including the one to which I belong). The backlash against legislation requiring accessibility, for example, is real, as seen in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30726471 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30726471

andrepd 5y ago
"Poor businesses forced to build ramps and make their websites screenreader-accessible" seems a distinctly weird take to me. If we're no longer taking even the slightest bit of care towards looking after our fellow Man then it's not a world worth living to me. EDIT: It's also not just a "tiny minority", about 13% of the world's population have serious vision impairment. Making streets, businesses, services, products accessible is the very least we can do. It's scary that someone who suffers from this himself would chalk it off as inefficiency and waste.
- mwcampbell 5y ago
  One can only be exposed to so much backlash from seemingly reasonable people before wondering if they're actually right.
  - scandox 5y ago
    People are not reasonable. They simply have their reasonable moments. If someone is angry because someone else asked for something then I think it's pretty obvious they're not in reasonable-mode.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    "Seemingly reasonable" is a poor place to start. It's somehow similar to the way so many of us expect actually evil people to somehow come with horns or other evil-indicating visual accessories. The reality is that evil people wear suits, and jeans, and shorts and hats and look just like the non-evil people. So it is with "reasonable". The fact that someone can phrase their objections to accessibility that doesn't make them immediately sound like a prejudiced ignorant lunatic doesn't actually mean that they are not a prejudiced ignorant lunatic (it doesn't mean that they are either, but you should remain suspicious). For myself, I had a revelation about such matters when my daughter had major hip surgery (twice). While normally a fully mobile and athletic person, she had to spend several weeks (twice) with a wheelchair. Suddenly it became clear that the accomodations we have made in this direction are not just for people born with disabilities that prevent them from walking: any one of us could find ourselves, either temporarily or permanently, benefitting from ramps and door openers and curb cuts etc. I am absolutely certain that the same is also true of accomodations made in the direction of visual impairment, hearing impairment and just about any other condition that deviates from some (often hypothetical) state of "full functionality". Please, protect yourself from the backlash from these "seemingly reasonable" people. They are ignorant, selfish and of limited scope in their thinking. You deserve better.
    - mwcampbell 5y ago
      > (it doesn't mean that they are either Then we should start with the assumption that they're not, right? I'm guessing that starting out by assuming the worst in others is one thing that contributes to the current polarization in US politics. > Please, protect yourself from the backlash from these "seemingly reasonable" people. What specifically do you advise that I do here? I don't want to just ignore challenges to the idea that accessibility should be a requirement. If I pay attention to these people and put in the effort to understand why they think as they do, then I can become a more effective advocate, or possibly even revise my position. Yes, the latter may lead me to question whether I should even exist, but it seems to me that a healthy mind should be able to dispassionately contemplate hypotheticals that even threaten oneself.
      - 5y ago

andrepd 5y ago

"Poor businesses forced to build ramps and make their websites screenreader-accessible" seems a distinctly weird take to me. If we're no longer taking even the slightest bit of care towards looking after our fellow Man then it's not a world worth living to me. EDIT: It's also not just a "tiny minority", about 13% of the world's population have serious vision impairment. Making streets, businesses, services, products accessible is the very least we can do. It's scary that someone who suffers from this himself would chalk it off as inefficiency and waste.

mwcampbell 5y ago
One can only be exposed to so much backlash from seemingly reasonable people before wondering if they're actually right.
- scandox 5y ago
  People are not reasonable. They simply have their reasonable moments. If someone is angry because someone else asked for something then I think it's pretty obvious they're not in reasonable-mode.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  "Seemingly reasonable" is a poor place to start. It's somehow similar to the way so many of us expect actually evil people to somehow come with horns or other evil-indicating visual accessories. The reality is that evil people wear suits, and jeans, and shorts and hats and look just like the non-evil people. So it is with "reasonable". The fact that someone can phrase their objections to accessibility that doesn't make them immediately sound like a prejudiced ignorant lunatic doesn't actually mean that they are not a prejudiced ignorant lunatic (it doesn't mean that they are either, but you should remain suspicious). For myself, I had a revelation about such matters when my daughter had major hip surgery (twice). While normally a fully mobile and athletic person, she had to spend several weeks (twice) with a wheelchair. Suddenly it became clear that the accomodations we have made in this direction are not just for people born with disabilities that prevent them from walking: any one of us could find ourselves, either temporarily or permanently, benefitting from ramps and door openers and curb cuts etc. I am absolutely certain that the same is also true of accomodations made in the direction of visual impairment, hearing impairment and just about any other condition that deviates from some (often hypothetical) state of "full functionality". Please, protect yourself from the backlash from these "seemingly reasonable" people. They are ignorant, selfish and of limited scope in their thinking. You deserve better.
  - mwcampbell 5y ago
    > (it doesn't mean that they are either Then we should start with the assumption that they're not, right? I'm guessing that starting out by assuming the worst in others is one thing that contributes to the current polarization in US politics. > Please, protect yourself from the backlash from these "seemingly reasonable" people. What specifically do you advise that I do here? I don't want to just ignore challenges to the idea that accessibility should be a requirement. If I pay attention to these people and put in the effort to understand why they think as they do, then I can become a more effective advocate, or possibly even revise my position. Yes, the latter may lead me to question whether I should even exist, but it seems to me that a healthy mind should be able to dispassionately contemplate hypotheticals that even threaten oneself.
    - 5y ago