6 ms·

Well the main issue in italy is not lack of funding or lack of talent but rather the amount of taxation companies had to go through and the uncertainty behind a

Well the main issue in italy is not lack of funding or lack of talent but rather the amount of taxation companies had to go through and the uncertainty behind a big and complex legal system which makes an average of 8 years for civil processing . these two things alone and the fact there are better places in europe to make a startup (hint: netherlands, germany, france, czech republic, romania, poland) makes me wonder if they will succeed or is this a way to collect IP rather than helping idea to grow? maybe they saw that this is exactly what most of incubators are doing, in the end lots of startups in Italy were made by university professors making startups out of a research paper from one of their student, so i can see why an incubator could be interested in this. yes i know, sorry for the negativity i've been there and i experienced this first hand.

simonebrunozzi 4y ago
I don't think you are properly informed. Italy is better than France, Germany, etc. [0] Italy has other problems (labor law; IP law; etc), but I don't think that taxes are an issue. [0]: https://taxfoundation.org/capital-gains-tax-rates-in-europe-2022 https://taxfoundation.org/capital-gains-tax-rates-in-europe-...
brthsim 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
epolanski 5y ago
Yes, doing business in Italy is hard, but when your company is doing poorly financially or is having issues it's the government that is going to pay your worker's salaries. Do places with low taxes have this? And the education of your worker's is paid by the government, so you don't get employees that are desperate to pay their student loans. And so is healthcare, so you don't have to pay no insurance (you may, but your workers don't depend on it). Also, new companies can easily get public funding. Or loans with no interests that are covered by the government. Do companies in different countries get that? Can you get millions in loans at 0 interest that if you can't pay the government will in US? New companies get a very friendly, near 0 taxation for few years, and the more people you employ (especially if young) the more slack on taxes you get. Do companies in countries with lower taxes get that? Mind you, I still believe doing business in Italy is too expensive and beurocracy too high, but there's also very serious benefits of doing it that you don't get in silicon valley where the first wrong swing kills your business and company.
- userulluipeste 5y ago
  "when your company is doing poorly financially or is having issues it's the government that is going to pay your worker's salaries" If true, it rather looks to me like a recipe for zombie enterprises than for healthy ones. Don't you want that, if it is to fail, to fail fast? "New companies get a very friendly, near 0 taxation for few years, and the more people you employ (especially if young) the more slack on taxes you get. Do companies in countries with lower taxes get that?" Romania is on lower end of all kind of taxes in the E.U., then especially new/small companies (whose turnover is lower than 1 million Euros) there is this tax option of 3% (from income) or even 1% if there is at least one employee. Education, healthcare, and even government grants (thanks to investment & development policies in overall E.U.) were worth mentioning only in relation to U.S., as Italy does not particularly excel at any of them.
- anamax 5y ago
  While all of those things sound good, the US seems to have a lot of startup success without any of them. That said, Israel may have some/all of them and it is successful startup-wise, so those things are not an obstacle either.
- samatman 5y ago
  The sum of these affordances adds up to a market for lemons. A startup can hire Italians anywhere, certainly anywhere in EU, so the benefit of pair-for education doesn't require Italian jurisdiction. Everything else sounds really handy if your company is destined for failure, since there are so many ways to get a bailout or take a "loan" with no interest which, hey, you also don't have to pay it back! That's a grant coupled to a later and optional donation, not a loan. A full-time employer pays for their employee's health care, it doesn't matter if it comes out of taxes or not. Business in Italy is too expensive, and bureaucracy too high, and you have done a fantastic job of explaining why that is while touting it as benefits! If I looked into the relationship between nepotism and getting access to all this free money, would I be surprised? Bet I wouldn't be.
  - hkt 5y ago
    > A full-time employer pays for their employee's health care, it doesn't matter if it comes out of taxes or not. The difference is that in countries with universal healthcare, everyone who works, companies, etc, pay for everyone's healthcare - an unmitigated social good that many in (say) America wish the US would learn from.
hardware2win 5y ago
Why poland?
rmbyrro 5y ago
Also missing in Italy are the networking and connections to relevant people and organizations. I think very few founders look for money at YCombinator, they're primarily interested in the connections.
gumby 5y ago
> the amount of taxation companies had to go through and the uncertainty behind a big and complex legal system which makes an average of 8 years for civil processing . It's the big, complex legal system that gets me, and the mentality that keeps it in place. There's some sort of minimum required level (countries with too little don't thrive either) but when I think of Italy or India I think the complexity of simply getting anything done is discouraging. OTOH I don't really care much about taxes and never have. Most of them are on profits, and if you're making profit, great! There are of course a plethora of bullshit excise taxes like business licenses, but in the main they have never added up to a lot in any business I've run. And of course I depend on things like fire brigade, a legal system (not that I've needed to sue anyone or be sued), clean air, roads, etc etc so paying taxes doesn't seem that bad in principle. Those things need to be paid anyway, and sometimes leaving them out of taxes is far worse (consider America's ridiculous health system)
- rosndo 5y ago
  The problem is that some countries offer vastly better ROI on taxes than others. Taxes aren’t a problem, shit ROI on taxes is.
- zepearl 5y ago
  I was about to start writing the exact same thing (you wrote it better than how I would have hehe), but I then saw your post => thank you :)
blaser-waffle 5y ago
Don't forget the culture of corruption, esp. in the south of the country.

simonebrunozzi 4y ago

I don't think you are properly informed. Italy is better than France, Germany, etc. [0] Italy has other problems (labor law; IP law; etc), but I don't think that taxes are an issue. [0]: https://taxfoundation.org/capital-gains-tax-rates-in-europe-2022 https://taxfoundation.org/capital-gains-tax-rates-in-europe-...

brthsim 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

epolanski 5y ago

Yes, doing business in Italy is hard, but when your company is doing poorly financially or is having issues it's the government that is going to pay your worker's salaries. Do places with low taxes have this? And the education of your worker's is paid by the government, so you don't get employees that are desperate to pay their student loans. And so is healthcare, so you don't have to pay no insurance (you may, but your workers don't depend on it). Also, new companies can easily get public funding. Or loans with no interests that are covered by the government. Do companies in different countries get that? Can you get millions in loans at 0 interest that if you can't pay the government will in US? New companies get a very friendly, near 0 taxation for few years, and the more people you employ (especially if young) the more slack on taxes you get. Do companies in countries with lower taxes get that? Mind you, I still believe doing business in Italy is too expensive and beurocracy too high, but there's also very serious benefits of doing it that you don't get in silicon valley where the first wrong swing kills your business and company.

userulluipeste 5y ago
"when your company is doing poorly financially or is having issues it's the government that is going to pay your worker's salaries" If true, it rather looks to me like a recipe for zombie enterprises than for healthy ones. Don't you want that, if it is to fail, to fail fast? "New companies get a very friendly, near 0 taxation for few years, and the more people you employ (especially if young) the more slack on taxes you get. Do companies in countries with lower taxes get that?" Romania is on lower end of all kind of taxes in the E.U., then especially new/small companies (whose turnover is lower than 1 million Euros) there is this tax option of 3% (from income) or even 1% if there is at least one employee. Education, healthcare, and even government grants (thanks to investment & development policies in overall E.U.) were worth mentioning only in relation to U.S., as Italy does not particularly excel at any of them.
anamax 5y ago
While all of those things sound good, the US seems to have a lot of startup success without any of them. That said, Israel may have some/all of them and it is successful startup-wise, so those things are not an obstacle either.
samatman 5y ago
The sum of these affordances adds up to a market for lemons. A startup can hire Italians anywhere, certainly anywhere in EU, so the benefit of pair-for education doesn't require Italian jurisdiction. Everything else sounds really handy if your company is destined for failure, since there are so many ways to get a bailout or take a "loan" with no interest which, hey, you also don't have to pay it back! That's a grant coupled to a later and optional donation, not a loan. A full-time employer pays for their employee's health care, it doesn't matter if it comes out of taxes or not. Business in Italy is too expensive, and bureaucracy too high, and you have done a fantastic job of explaining why that is while touting it as benefits! If I looked into the relationship between nepotism and getting access to all this free money, would I be surprised? Bet I wouldn't be.
- hkt 5y ago
  > A full-time employer pays for their employee's health care, it doesn't matter if it comes out of taxes or not. The difference is that in countries with universal healthcare, everyone who works, companies, etc, pay for everyone's healthcare - an unmitigated social good that many in (say) America wish the US would learn from.

hardware2win 5y ago

Why poland?

rmbyrro 5y ago

Also missing in Italy are the networking and connections to relevant people and organizations. I think very few founders look for money at YCombinator, they're primarily interested in the connections.

gumby 5y ago

> the amount of taxation companies had to go through and the uncertainty behind a big and complex legal system which makes an average of 8 years for civil processing . It's the big, complex legal system that gets me, and the mentality that keeps it in place. There's some sort of minimum required level (countries with too little don't thrive either) but when I think of Italy or India I think the complexity of simply getting anything done is discouraging. OTOH I don't really care much about taxes and never have. Most of them are on profits, and if you're making profit, great! There are of course a plethora of bullshit excise taxes like business licenses, but in the main they have never added up to a lot in any business I've run. And of course I depend on things like fire brigade, a legal system (not that I've needed to sue anyone or be sued), clean air, roads, etc etc so paying taxes doesn't seem that bad in principle. Those things need to be paid anyway, and sometimes leaving them out of taxes is far worse (consider America's ridiculous health system)

rosndo 5y ago
The problem is that some countries offer vastly better ROI on taxes than others. Taxes aren’t a problem, shit ROI on taxes is.
zepearl 5y ago
I was about to start writing the exact same thing (you wrote it better than how I would have hehe), but I then saw your post => thank you :)

blaser-waffle 5y ago

Don't forget the culture of corruption, esp. in the south of the country.