9 ms·
he died of vomiting blood from alcoholism, just like alan watts
by tonguez 5y ago
he died of vomiting blood from alcoholism, just like alan watts
- coldtea 5y agoSo?
- kragen 5y agoSo probably neither one of them had achieved much in the way of liberation from attachment to sensory pleasure (and the other four hindrances: hate, dullness, anxiety, and doubt) or the resulting cessation of suffering, which is the point of Buddhism. So either Buddhism doesn't work or Kerouac and Watts sucked at it. That, in turn, means that they are not reliable sources for information about how to do Buddhism. That might be okay if you read Kerouac and then go find guidance on the path from someone who really is liberated, assuming that's possible, but how do you as a novice layperson tell the difference between a liberated Zen master and a charlatan? If US seekers were good at it, Kerouac's and Watts's books wouldn't be the bestsellers in the category, they'd be eclipsed by somebody whose practice of Buddhism in their own life was actually successful and who had trustworthy, well-grounded insights to share. So you're likely to replicate the errors that led you to Kerouac in the first place by choosing someone like Richard Baker as your teacher. Then, instead of getting liberated from suffering, you just get sexually exploited. In particular, Kerouac kind of glorifies living heedlessly, and it was precisely that heedlessness that caused his death. Also, it was Richard Baker's heedlessness that caused so much suffering to his students, leaving scars in the community around the San Francisco Zen Center that continue to cause suffering, almost 30 years after his departure. If you're looking for someone to give you permission to live heedlessly, to tell you that living heedlessly is the path to liberation from suffering, you are going to assiduously avoid anything resembling orthodox Buddhism, which says that heedlessness causes suffering. It's kind of the opposite extreme, really: orthodox Buddhist doctrine is that you should do everything extremely carefully. And you can see this in Zen rock gardens, in the Japanese tea ceremony, in Thich Nhat Hanh's practice of singing a little verse to himself about washing his hands every time he washed his hands, in the absolute prohibition on drinking alcohol, and so on. As far as I can tell it's uniform across every branch of Buddhism. I'm no expert, of course—obviously I'm no enlightened being or I wouldn't be posting in this cesspit of ill-will and ego. So my understanding of Buddhism should also be suspect. But there is at least somewhat less evidence that I have Buddhism entirely backwards than there is for Watts and Kerouac. Not only have I not died vomiting blood due to alcoholism, the only drug I'm addicted to is caffeine. It's the same kind of problem we have with programming books, where incompetent fools like Herbert Schildt https://www.seebs.net/c/c_tcn4e.html https://www.seebs.net/c/c_tcn4e.html outsell Kernighan & Ritchie in the "learning C" category, and where the whole methodology and architecture category is full of snake-oil salesmen who have never successfully written a large program.
- noarchy 5y agoWho would you consider to be "liberated"? I can't recall even some of the well-regarded teachers of recent times (Thich Nhat Hanh, Ajahn Chah, and others) making that claim about themselves, though others certainly made the claim for them.
- kragen 5y agoFuck, I don't know! Ask someone liberated, not me.
- JetAlone 5y agoA truly liberated person would hardly scream out "I am liberated, come to my Ted Talk!"
- kragen 5y agoIf we believe the Tipitaka, Shakyamuni talked about how liberated he was, what it was like to be liberated, and how to get liberated like him, pretty much nonstop, for decades. If enlightenment makes you humble then the Buddha was a charlatan and Buddhism is bosh. (This generalizes to most religions!) Contrapositively, if Buddhism is even moderately well-founded, then at least some truly liberated people would totally scream that out, at least under some circumstances.
- JetAlone 5y agoI feel a need to clarify. I'm Eastern Orthodox Christian, so I do find some sort of speaking out to be productive. The apostles did evangelize, they worked miracles and focused on others above themselves according to the Book of Acts and epistles. But even St. Paul, in his epistles, speaks openly and humbly of his own struggles with the flesh. While he's given strength for that battle, he is meaningfully but still not completely liberated from dealing with the problems sin/temptation present. I understand that everyone who calls for me to listen to a talk could only be liberated to a partial extent. I think once a mortal is fully liberated, they will no longer need to evangelize. Kind of like how we only have sex in this world, it's something for the interim. Until the Resurrection, most if not all of our lives are a work in progress. I also pay attention to the examples of the desert fathers, many of whom held exceptional wisdom which caused them to deliberately eschew all company, out of fear of becoming prideful by asserting spiritual/intellectual superiority and taking control of the lives of the people in the cities from which they fled. Where you said "Fuck, I don't know! Ask someone liberated, not me.", I might say "Fiddlesticks, I don't know! Ask someone further along the path with a teaching mission, not me." By the way I don't if you were aware or not, but this man, Father Seraphim Rose was actually a former student of Alan Watts. I find his writing helpful, personally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraphim_Rose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraphim_Rose
- noarchy 5y agoOne might say it means they had issues keeping the Fifth Precept (abstaining from alcohol, or sometimes interpreted to mean all intoxicants), which some Buddhist laypersons adhere to. But no one ever (or did they?) claimed these men were enlightened beings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_precepts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_precepts
- damontal 5y agoPretty sure Watts never claimed to be a Buddhist. He styled himself as more of an entertainer who’s subject was religion.
- slibhb 5y agoHow people actually lived seems relevant as long as they're giving us advice about how to live.
- adolph 5y agoI want to make one thing absolutely clear. I am not a Zen Buddhist, I am not advocating Zen Buddhism, I am not trying to convert anyone to it. I have nothing to sell. I'm an entertainer. That is to say, in the same sense, that when you go to a concert and you listen to someone play Mozart, he has nothing to sell except the sound of the music. He doesn’t want to convert you to anything. He doesn’t want you to join an organization in favor of Mozart's music as opposed to, say, Beethoven's. And I approach you in the same spirit as a musician with his piano or a violinist with his violin. I just want you to enjoy a point of view that I enjoy. Source: https://quotepark.com/quotes/1935679-alan-watts-i-want-to-make-one-thing-absolutely-clear-i-am-no/ https://quotepark.com/quotes/1935679-alan-watts-i-want-to-ma...
- coldtea 5y agoDid Kerouac ever told you not to die an alcoholic? If anything, he advised travelling, drinking, experiencing stuff, and burning life like a candle from both ends...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- pie42000 5y agoNot a bad way to go
- mwattsun 5y agoZen Buddhism by itself does not cure alcoholism, although it can be helpful in recovery to prevent relapse.
- artificialLimbs 5y agoIt seems these 2 examples don't contribute to that idea.
- nabla9 5y agoReading, studying, writing and thinking about Zen Buddhism like these guys did certainly does not cure anything.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y agoIt can help with craving.
- nabla9 5y agoBoth Watts and Kerouac were outsiders looking in. Watts was also a very scholarly book-learned about Zen Buddhism, but he never claimed he did the thing or meditated much, he just wrote beautifully and inspired others to try meditating. When I started meditating, I asked about Watts or Kerouac from long-term practitioners and Zen teachers. Pretty much everyone says that they wrote lots of "beautiful zen nonsense", but it's not bad because they have inspired thousands of people to try. From a daily practice perspective, zen feels more mundane. It's like going to the gym or brushing your teeth. More people like the idea of doing zen than actually doing it. Stopping and sitting with your daily shit every day does not feel cool. When the exotic, aesthetic and philosophical aspect wears out, most people quit.