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The gov created the entire messed up system with loan guarantees among many other complexities. The current situation is like slapping a bandaid on a severed li

by bwb 5y ago

The gov created the entire messed up system with loan guarantees among many other complexities. The current situation is like slapping a bandaid on a severed limb… it fixes nothing. College is good for people, society, the economy… i hope one day they fix all this so more people can afford to go college.

remarkEon 5y ago
I'd rather we just be more honest about the entirety of the problem space. The loan situation is insane, and pretty much always has been. Universities get to increase tuition costs every year, don't have to respond to any market pressures because the US Government guarantees a loan to young people that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. What did people think would happen to college costs in this situation? Of course they would explode. Second, I don't think more people should go to college. I think significantly less should. There's a collective delusion that people learn things there, and some surely do, but it's become an "experience", a credentialing exercise, a "right of passage" all at once. For many people, developing a trade is a much better and faster path to financial security than pausing your income for four years, loading up with debt, and entering the market with dubiously useful degrees. I'm a millennial, got my undergrad paid for via the military, and I feel like most of my high school classmates that didn't do that are just straight up screwed. They bought into a cultural moment that outright demanded that everyone do this same expensive exercise. So, what is to be done ... is actually pretty simple: cancel the vast majority of debt and pay for it via a punitive excise tax on University endowments, and force them to respond by actually teaching people useful things. If said university can't make it in that environment then, well, now they know what it feels like.
- boppo1 5y ago
  Also make debt dischargeable in bankruptcy and make universities at least partially liable for the risk.
  - bwb 5y ago
    totally agree on the first part. That would shake up the market. Universities should be funded by the government and aimed at low cost anyway. The price my dad paid for college was easily paid for while working part time.
- dolni 5y ago
  > For many people, developing a trade is a much better and faster path to financial security than pausing your income for four years, loading up with debt, and entering the market with dubiously useful degrees. You're absolutely spot on about this. Not everyone is cut out for college. Tradespeople do honest work and make a decent living. > I'm a millennial, got my undergrad paid for via the military, and I feel like most of my high school classmates that didn't do that are just straight up screwed. This is definitely a route that isn't touted enough. If you have the aptitude, you can get a degree paid for. You'll bust your ass for it though (at least in ROTC, which I dipped my toe into and nope-d out of when I found out it wasn't for me). Going to college is one of the biggest decisions a person can make and it's not a decision to be made lightly. You need to make a serious effort to set yourself up for success by: * pursuing financial aid and scholarships * not getting a shit degree with no job market * working hard to ensure your degree is finished in four years (or less, if you can manage) * going to a cheaper school - consider in-state universities or community college and transfer credits
  - bwb 5y ago
    The stats show that going to university is a massive increase in long term earnings. That means it is good for the individual financially (as well as for the country). It should be an option for everyone regardless of cost, it might not be a fit for some people, and we also need technical schools that are low cost and can teach skills/trade. From my POV college/university is great for teaching people how to think and getting a better understanding of the world. I think we could improve that in high school by mandating philosophy/ethics, financial literacy, critical thinking from 9th to 12th grade as well. You should also check out the stats on degrees, you will find that a lot of humanities majors actually have super high payoffs. I don't think there are any shit degrees. University can be about improving your ability to think critically and improving your overall education. That can be generally applied to just about anything (for example, I've got a history/political-science/international-relations degree and it has helped me in so many ways in my professional career).
    - dolni 5y ago
      > The stats show that going to university is a massive increase in long term earnings. That means it is good for the individual financially (as well as for the country). If that is the case, why was there so much drama about canceling student loan debt? The earnings of these people allegedly increased but not enough for them to pay their loans off? > From my POV college/university is great for teaching people how to think and getting a better understanding of the world. I think we could improve that in high school by mandating philosophy/ethics, financial literacy, critical thinking from 9th to 12th grade as well. Woke-ism has captured most of higher education and stifled free debate in a number of ways. You effectively can't challenge certain ideas without being ostracized (e.g a debate about whether affirmative action is good policy). > You should also check out the stats on degrees, you will find that a lot of humanities majors actually have super high payoffs. I don't think there are any shit degrees I didn't say all humanities are bad. But I would tell anybody getting a degree in psychology or philosophy that it is money wasted. If you want to study those things because you like them, by all means do. But don't expect it to be the thing that assures your future financial success.

by bwb 5y ago

remarkEon 5y ago

I'd rather we just be more honest about the entirety of the problem space. The loan situation is insane, and pretty much always has been. Universities get to increase tuition costs every year, don't have to respond to any market pressures because the US Government guarantees a loan to young people that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. What did people think would happen to college costs in this situation? Of course they would explode. Second, I don't think more people should go to college. I think significantly less should. There's a collective delusion that people learn things there, and some surely do, but it's become an "experience", a credentialing exercise, a "right of passage" all at once. For many people, developing a trade is a much better and faster path to financial security than pausing your income for four years, loading up with debt, and entering the market with dubiously useful degrees. I'm a millennial, got my undergrad paid for via the military, and I feel like most of my high school classmates that didn't do that are just straight up screwed. They bought into a cultural moment that outright demanded that everyone do this same expensive exercise. So, what is to be done ... is actually pretty simple: cancel the vast majority of debt and pay for it via a punitive excise tax on University endowments, and force them to respond by actually teaching people useful things. If said university can't make it in that environment then, well, now they know what it feels like.

boppo1 5y ago
Also make debt dischargeable in bankruptcy and make universities at least partially liable for the risk.
- bwb 5y ago
  totally agree on the first part. That would shake up the market. Universities should be funded by the government and aimed at low cost anyway. The price my dad paid for college was easily paid for while working part time.
dolni 5y ago
> For many people, developing a trade is a much better and faster path to financial security than pausing your income for four years, loading up with debt, and entering the market with dubiously useful degrees. You're absolutely spot on about this. Not everyone is cut out for college. Tradespeople do honest work and make a decent living. > I'm a millennial, got my undergrad paid for via the military, and I feel like most of my high school classmates that didn't do that are just straight up screwed. This is definitely a route that isn't touted enough. If you have the aptitude, you can get a degree paid for. You'll bust your ass for it though (at least in ROTC, which I dipped my toe into and nope-d out of when I found out it wasn't for me). Going to college is one of the biggest decisions a person can make and it's not a decision to be made lightly. You need to make a serious effort to set yourself up for success by: * pursuing financial aid and scholarships * not getting a shit degree with no job market * working hard to ensure your degree is finished in four years (or less, if you can manage) * going to a cheaper school - consider in-state universities or community college and transfer credits
- bwb 5y ago
  The stats show that going to university is a massive increase in long term earnings. That means it is good for the individual financially (as well as for the country). It should be an option for everyone regardless of cost, it might not be a fit for some people, and we also need technical schools that are low cost and can teach skills/trade. From my POV college/university is great for teaching people how to think and getting a better understanding of the world. I think we could improve that in high school by mandating philosophy/ethics, financial literacy, critical thinking from 9th to 12th grade as well. You should also check out the stats on degrees, you will find that a lot of humanities majors actually have super high payoffs. I don't think there are any shit degrees. University can be about improving your ability to think critically and improving your overall education. That can be generally applied to just about anything (for example, I've got a history/political-science/international-relations degree and it has helped me in so many ways in my professional career).
  - dolni 5y ago
    > The stats show that going to university is a massive increase in long term earnings. That means it is good for the individual financially (as well as for the country). If that is the case, why was there so much drama about canceling student loan debt? The earnings of these people allegedly increased but not enough for them to pay their loans off? > From my POV college/university is great for teaching people how to think and getting a better understanding of the world. I think we could improve that in high school by mandating philosophy/ethics, financial literacy, critical thinking from 9th to 12th grade as well. Woke-ism has captured most of higher education and stifled free debate in a number of ways. You effectively can't challenge certain ideas without being ostracized (e.g a debate about whether affirmative action is good policy). > You should also check out the stats on degrees, you will find that a lot of humanities majors actually have super high payoffs. I don't think there are any shit degrees I didn't say all humanities are bad. But I would tell anybody getting a degree in psychology or philosophy that it is money wasted. If you want to study those things because you like them, by all means do. But don't expect it to be the thing that assures your future financial success.