4 ms·

Why should taxpayers have to pay for stupid decisions to attend college?

bwb 5y ago
The gov created the entire messed up system with loan guarantees among many other complexities. The current situation is like slapping a bandaid on a severed limb… it fixes nothing. College is good for people, society, the economy… i hope one day they fix all this so more people can afford to go college.
- remarkEon 5y ago
  I'd rather we just be more honest about the entirety of the problem space. The loan situation is insane, and pretty much always has been. Universities get to increase tuition costs every year, don't have to respond to any market pressures because the US Government guarantees a loan to young people that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. What did people think would happen to college costs in this situation? Of course they would explode. Second, I don't think more people should go to college. I think significantly less should. There's a collective delusion that people learn things there, and some surely do, but it's become an "experience", a credentialing exercise, a "right of passage" all at once. For many people, developing a trade is a much better and faster path to financial security than pausing your income for four years, loading up with debt, and entering the market with dubiously useful degrees. I'm a millennial, got my undergrad paid for via the military, and I feel like most of my high school classmates that didn't do that are just straight up screwed. They bought into a cultural moment that outright demanded that everyone do this same expensive exercise. So, what is to be done ... is actually pretty simple: cancel the vast majority of debt and pay for it via a punitive excise tax on University endowments, and force them to respond by actually teaching people useful things. If said university can't make it in that environment then, well, now they know what it feels like.
  - boppo1 5y ago
    Also make debt dischargeable in bankruptcy and make universities at least partially liable for the risk.
    - bwb 5y ago
      totally agree on the first part. That would shake up the market. Universities should be funded by the government and aimed at low cost anyway. The price my dad paid for college was easily paid for while working part time.
  - dolni 5y ago
    > For many people, developing a trade is a much better and faster path to financial security than pausing your income for four years, loading up with debt, and entering the market with dubiously useful degrees. You're absolutely spot on about this. Not everyone is cut out for college. Tradespeople do honest work and make a decent living. > I'm a millennial, got my undergrad paid for via the military, and I feel like most of my high school classmates that didn't do that are just straight up screwed. This is definitely a route that isn't touted enough. If you have the aptitude, you can get a degree paid for. You'll bust your ass for it though (at least in ROTC, which I dipped my toe into and nope-d out of when I found out it wasn't for me). Going to college is one of the biggest decisions a person can make and it's not a decision to be made lightly. You need to make a serious effort to set yourself up for success by: * pursuing financial aid and scholarships * not getting a shit degree with no job market * working hard to ensure your degree is finished in four years (or less, if you can manage) * going to a cheaper school - consider in-state universities or community college and transfer credits
    - bwb 5y ago
      The stats show that going to university is a massive increase in long term earnings. That means it is good for the individual financially (as well as for the country). It should be an option for everyone regardless of cost, it might not be a fit for some people, and we also need technical schools that are low cost and can teach skills/trade. From my POV college/university is great for teaching people how to think and getting a better understanding of the world. I think we could improve that in high school by mandating philosophy/ethics, financial literacy, critical thinking from 9th to 12th grade as well. You should also check out the stats on degrees, you will find that a lot of humanities majors actually have super high payoffs. I don't think there are any shit degrees. University can be about improving your ability to think critically and improving your overall education. That can be generally applied to just about anything (for example, I've got a history/political-science/international-relations degree and it has helped me in so many ways in my professional career).
      - dolni 5y ago
        > The stats show that going to university is a massive increase in long term earnings. That means it is good for the individual financially (as well as for the country). If that is the case, why was there so much drama about canceling student loan debt? The earnings of these people allegedly increased but not enough for them to pay their loans off? > From my POV college/university is great for teaching people how to think and getting a better understanding of the world. I think we could improve that in high school by mandating philosophy/ethics, financial literacy, critical thinking from 9th to 12th grade as well. Woke-ism has captured most of higher education and stifled free debate in a number of ways. You effectively can't challenge certain ideas without being ostracized (e.g a debate about whether affirmative action is good policy). > You should also check out the stats on degrees, you will find that a lot of humanities majors actually have super high payoffs. I don't think there are any shit degrees I didn't say all humanities are bad. But I would tell anybody getting a degree in psychology or philosophy that it is money wasted. If you want to study those things because you like them, by all means do. But don't expect it to be the thing that assures your future financial success.
deleted 5y ago
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willcipriano 5y ago
Exactly. I wasn't privileged enough to spend a few years drinking and fooling around, I was on my own at 15. If things went according to plan the higher educated crowd would've been lording their degrees over me and I'd be like Biff Tannen washing their cars. Sucks that the tables turned, but the rules are the rules and turnabout is fair play.
- remarkEon 5y ago
  I totally understand this perspective, I really do, I just disagree with it because I think it would be better to punish those who are responsible for the system being borderline fraudulent as-is. Everyone in my generation - and I mean everyone, outside of those already privileged enough to afford to gamble in the opposite direction - thought that without going to college you wind up poor. They think this way because they were told this as an axiomatic truth by guidance counselors, their teachers, and perhaps especially University recruiters who of course had a financial incentive to perpetuate this perspective. The other problem is we did, in many ways, choose to restructure our entire economy around getting some degree to be used in the "new" economy, one that didn't have manufacturing jobs or other jobs that you could support a family on. These kids didn't choose this, elites and bureaucrats did, and as it turns out those degrees are still largely useless and certainly shouldn't require 4 years and $165k to get.
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    I see where you are coming from but the people I see with 165k in debt are largely the children of elites and bureaucrats. Spending a house on a art history degree isn't something a poor person does by and large.
haunter 5y ago
And this is why the US will never have EU-like free healthcare "Why should the healthy people pay for the sick's treatment?"
- FFRefresh 5y ago
  This is an okay analogy on the surface, but there is another dimension to the student loan debt situation. The borrowers are not the poorest/most vulnerable of the population. They are disproportionately from upper income brackets.
  - sjg007 5y ago
    Most of the student debt is from students who attend for profit colleges who do not complete their degree.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      I don't think that's true in aggregate, and certainly isn't true when adjusted for population size. The average doctor has far more school debt than the average dropout. Now, a pause on the first 30k of debt (or any other number under 100k) would solve that issue. 30k was chosen because that number seems to be proposed at a lot as a cutoff.
    - kongolongo 5y ago
      That's just not true. “While 39% of borrowers did not complete a degree, they account for only 23% of debt borrowed” [1] The stats clearly show the vast majority of student loan debt is held by degree holders and disproportionately by graduate degree holders with extremely high earnings potentials (doctors, lawyers, MBAs)[2]. Remember debt is a financial instrument, not necessarily a bad outcome. Graduate degree pursuers often hold a lot more debt, but will become much better positioned to repay it a few years after graduation. [1]https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/feb/12/alma-adams/democrats-say-40-people-college-debt-didnt-get-deg/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/feb/12/alma-adams... [2]https://www.brookings.edu/research/student-loan-forgiveness-is-regressive-whether-measured-by-income-education-or-wealth/#cancel https://www.brookings.edu/research/student-loan-forgiveness-...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

bwb 5y ago

The gov created the entire messed up system with loan guarantees among many other complexities. The current situation is like slapping a bandaid on a severed limb… it fixes nothing. College is good for people, society, the economy… i hope one day they fix all this so more people can afford to go college.

remarkEon 5y ago
I'd rather we just be more honest about the entirety of the problem space. The loan situation is insane, and pretty much always has been. Universities get to increase tuition costs every year, don't have to respond to any market pressures because the US Government guarantees a loan to young people that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. What did people think would happen to college costs in this situation? Of course they would explode. Second, I don't think more people should go to college. I think significantly less should. There's a collective delusion that people learn things there, and some surely do, but it's become an "experience", a credentialing exercise, a "right of passage" all at once. For many people, developing a trade is a much better and faster path to financial security than pausing your income for four years, loading up with debt, and entering the market with dubiously useful degrees. I'm a millennial, got my undergrad paid for via the military, and I feel like most of my high school classmates that didn't do that are just straight up screwed. They bought into a cultural moment that outright demanded that everyone do this same expensive exercise. So, what is to be done ... is actually pretty simple: cancel the vast majority of debt and pay for it via a punitive excise tax on University endowments, and force them to respond by actually teaching people useful things. If said university can't make it in that environment then, well, now they know what it feels like.
- boppo1 5y ago
  Also make debt dischargeable in bankruptcy and make universities at least partially liable for the risk.
  - bwb 5y ago
    totally agree on the first part. That would shake up the market. Universities should be funded by the government and aimed at low cost anyway. The price my dad paid for college was easily paid for while working part time.
- dolni 5y ago
  > For many people, developing a trade is a much better and faster path to financial security than pausing your income for four years, loading up with debt, and entering the market with dubiously useful degrees. You're absolutely spot on about this. Not everyone is cut out for college. Tradespeople do honest work and make a decent living. > I'm a millennial, got my undergrad paid for via the military, and I feel like most of my high school classmates that didn't do that are just straight up screwed. This is definitely a route that isn't touted enough. If you have the aptitude, you can get a degree paid for. You'll bust your ass for it though (at least in ROTC, which I dipped my toe into and nope-d out of when I found out it wasn't for me). Going to college is one of the biggest decisions a person can make and it's not a decision to be made lightly. You need to make a serious effort to set yourself up for success by: * pursuing financial aid and scholarships * not getting a shit degree with no job market * working hard to ensure your degree is finished in four years (or less, if you can manage) * going to a cheaper school - consider in-state universities or community college and transfer credits
  - bwb 5y ago
    The stats show that going to university is a massive increase in long term earnings. That means it is good for the individual financially (as well as for the country). It should be an option for everyone regardless of cost, it might not be a fit for some people, and we also need technical schools that are low cost and can teach skills/trade. From my POV college/university is great for teaching people how to think and getting a better understanding of the world. I think we could improve that in high school by mandating philosophy/ethics, financial literacy, critical thinking from 9th to 12th grade as well. You should also check out the stats on degrees, you will find that a lot of humanities majors actually have super high payoffs. I don't think there are any shit degrees. University can be about improving your ability to think critically and improving your overall education. That can be generally applied to just about anything (for example, I've got a history/political-science/international-relations degree and it has helped me in so many ways in my professional career).
    - dolni 5y ago
      > The stats show that going to university is a massive increase in long term earnings. That means it is good for the individual financially (as well as for the country). If that is the case, why was there so much drama about canceling student loan debt? The earnings of these people allegedly increased but not enough for them to pay their loans off? > From my POV college/university is great for teaching people how to think and getting a better understanding of the world. I think we could improve that in high school by mandating philosophy/ethics, financial literacy, critical thinking from 9th to 12th grade as well. Woke-ism has captured most of higher education and stifled free debate in a number of ways. You effectively can't challenge certain ideas without being ostracized (e.g a debate about whether affirmative action is good policy). > You should also check out the stats on degrees, you will find that a lot of humanities majors actually have super high payoffs. I don't think there are any shit degrees I didn't say all humanities are bad. But I would tell anybody getting a degree in psychology or philosophy that it is money wasted. If you want to study those things because you like them, by all means do. But don't expect it to be the thing that assures your future financial success.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

willcipriano 5y ago

Exactly. I wasn't privileged enough to spend a few years drinking and fooling around, I was on my own at 15. If things went according to plan the higher educated crowd would've been lording their degrees over me and I'd be like Biff Tannen washing their cars. Sucks that the tables turned, but the rules are the rules and turnabout is fair play.

remarkEon 5y ago
I totally understand this perspective, I really do, I just disagree with it because I think it would be better to punish those who are responsible for the system being borderline fraudulent as-is. Everyone in my generation - and I mean everyone, outside of those already privileged enough to afford to gamble in the opposite direction - thought that without going to college you wind up poor. They think this way because they were told this as an axiomatic truth by guidance counselors, their teachers, and perhaps especially University recruiters who of course had a financial incentive to perpetuate this perspective. The other problem is we did, in many ways, choose to restructure our entire economy around getting some degree to be used in the "new" economy, one that didn't have manufacturing jobs or other jobs that you could support a family on. These kids didn't choose this, elites and bureaucrats did, and as it turns out those degrees are still largely useless and certainly shouldn't require 4 years and $165k to get.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  I see where you are coming from but the people I see with 165k in debt are largely the children of elites and bureaucrats. Spending a house on a art history degree isn't something a poor person does by and large.

haunter 5y ago

And this is why the US will never have EU-like free healthcare "Why should the healthy people pay for the sick's treatment?"

FFRefresh 5y ago
This is an okay analogy on the surface, but there is another dimension to the student loan debt situation. The borrowers are not the poorest/most vulnerable of the population. They are disproportionately from upper income brackets.
- sjg007 5y ago
  Most of the student debt is from students who attend for profit colleges who do not complete their degree.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    I don't think that's true in aggregate, and certainly isn't true when adjusted for population size. The average doctor has far more school debt than the average dropout. Now, a pause on the first 30k of debt (or any other number under 100k) would solve that issue. 30k was chosen because that number seems to be proposed at a lot as a cutoff.
  - kongolongo 5y ago
    That's just not true. “While 39% of borrowers did not complete a degree, they account for only 23% of debt borrowed” [1] The stats clearly show the vast majority of student loan debt is held by degree holders and disproportionately by graduate degree holders with extremely high earnings potentials (doctors, lawyers, MBAs)[2]. Remember debt is a financial instrument, not necessarily a bad outcome. Graduate degree pursuers often hold a lot more debt, but will become much better positioned to repay it a few years after graduation. [1]https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/feb/12/alma-adams/democrats-say-40-people-college-debt-didnt-get-deg/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/feb/12/alma-adams... [2]https://www.brookings.edu/research/student-loan-forgiveness-is-regressive-whether-measured-by-income-education-or-wealth/#cancel https://www.brookings.edu/research/student-loan-forgiveness-...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]