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> He filed forms that he was going to be a passive investor This was almost certainly done by a lawyer working on his behalf. This strikes me as a technicality

> He filed forms that he was going to be a passive investor This was almost certainly done by a lawyer working on his behalf. This strikes me as a technicality of paperwork that is being seized upon by the media as a way to portray Musk in the worst possible light. > I wouldn't want somebody like him on my board In this hypothetical, what is your role (i.e. fellow shareholder, CEO, employee)? I ask because shareholders (aka the owners of the company) choose the board. Musk owns nearly 1/10th of the company, and is now the largest shareholder, institutional or individual, by a good margin. In other words, whatever your hypothetical role, you wouldn't have much of a choice. Setting the mechanics of boards aside, there is strong case for him being the most successful business person alive. He is right up there with Bezos, Gates, and Zuckerberg. Shareholders should be cheering this on. And there is some evidence, in the form of the stock price, that they are.

elicash 5y ago
> This was almost certainly done by a lawyer working on his behalf. Are you arguing that when he signs his name and certifies that the (short) form is "true, complete and correct" that he is not responsible because the form was prepared by an attorney of his? > being seized upon by the media How did "the media" seize on this? When I last checked, there were zero articles. And even if they had, why wouldn't discussion be merited?
- colechristensen 5y ago
  Does it matter? Was there any consequence of filling out a form then doing something different? I have heard it several times already today, but so what a form was filled out wrong, is there any consequence to that that anybody would care about? (I doubt anybody complaining about it actually knows anything about how important it is, it’s just being latched on to because it’s a way to match events with preexisting opinions)
  - elicash 5y ago
    Yes. He is currently in court claiming SEC is picking on him on another matter and this (and the fact that the filing was late) is likely going to hurt his case with the judge. And while I don't like speculating, since you're asking me to do so I'll add that it's entirely possible that any misrepresentations here get pursued on its own merits, as well.
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      It’s worth pointing out that the SEC is extremely image conscious. They count on their reputation as the hammer of god himself to keep traders in line. Elon repeatedly snubbing them is going to tempt them to pull out all the stops.
      - nullc 5y ago
        SEC's actual power is extremely limited. -- This is why e.g. with ICO scams you see them taking no action at all or imposing a fine that is just a cost-of-doing-business percentage of what they took in from the general public, at least against ICOs that are wealthy enough to keep the SEC tied up in litigation.
    - colechristensen 5y ago
      "He broke the rules!" ok, sure. But why is that form there and what is the consequence of filing one way or the other? I mean besides being punished for doing it wrong, why does that rule exist and what are the effects of filling it out one way or the other? Why is this anything more than an administrative mistake? Did he get some benefit from filing the form that way? ... or, what it seems, is this just a "gotcha!" for people to complain about on the Internet.
      - elicash 5y ago
        "Schedule 13D is intended to provide transparency to the public regarding who these shareholders are and why they have taken a significant stake in the company. The form signifies to the public that a change of control, such as a hostile takeover or proxy fight, might be about to take place so that current shareholders in the company can make informed investing and voting decisions." https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/schedule13d.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/schedule13d.asp
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - xadhominemx 5y ago
    13Ds and Gs have different filing thresholds and requirements
- lstamour 5y ago
  > When I last checked, there were zero articles. Can I introduce you to Matt Levine? A very popular opinion columnist - you can get his column by email even without a subscription to Bloomberg, but he’s one of the reasons I subscribe. His take on this was emailed out midday yesterday and I enjoyed every minute: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-04/elon-musk-bought-some-twitter https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-04/elon-m... You can find an archive of columns here: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/authors/ARbTQlRLRjE/matthew-s-levine https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/authors/ARbTQlRLRjE/matthe... and the email sign up is at http://www.bloomberg.com/newsletters http://www.bloomberg.com/newsletters (it used to be a bit easier to find… but pick “Money Stuff” from the list)
  - iratewizard 5y ago
    I personally find this style of writing pretentious, obnoxious and egotistical.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - lstamour 5y ago
      Yes, it can be. It can also be funny and informative, though. Check out the archives, a lot of topics build on past articles and not everything is a joke, sometimes there are clear and simple explanations of financial terms: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/authors/ARbTQlRLRjE/matthew-s-levine https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/authors/ARbTQlRLRjE/matthe...
    - pmalynin 5y ago
    - unmole 5y ago
      He keep making jokes about how boring and unimportant he is compared to the people he writes about. How do you get pretentious or egotistical?
- next_xibalba 5y ago
  > How did "the media" seize on this? Let me ask you this: how is it that you are aware of the form and how Musk (or, more likely, a lawyer) filled it out? It is being reported [1]. Every word in an article for a major news outlet is meaningful in some way. Journalists are not provided limitless word count, so decisions have to be made about what is and is not included. Now, one could definitely argue that journalists merely reported on it as they were trying to divine Musk's intentions. But to then interpret this, as the GP has done, as a sign of Musk's dishonesty and lack of integrity is too great a leap (in my opinion). [1] https://news.google.com/search?q=elon+musk+twitter+passive https://news.google.com/search?q=elon+musk+twitter+passive Edit: Also, I love your handle. "Wildcat. Wiiiiiild cat."
  - elicash 5y ago
    Those articles are mostly about announcing as a passive investor -- not whether he misled the public in his filings. This collection of articles only further makes the case that the media has mostly reported uncritically his misleading claim. RE: handle, thanks! Also, I have since-posting found one article kinda about this: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/04/elon-musk-thumbs-his-nose-at-the-sec-again-with-twitter-stake.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/04/elon-musk-thumbs-his-nose-at... However, even that article is just about the lateness of the filing. It doesn't mention the debate over whether the filing itself was misleading. And this is the best example I could find!
justapassenger 5y ago
> This was almost certainly done by a lawyer working on his behalf. This strikes me as a technicality of paperwork that is being seized upon by the media as a way to portray Musk in the worst possible light. Elon openly attacks and disregards SEC. He doesn’t have any benefit of the doubt left, when it comes to activities that SEC is suppose to be regulating.
- fallingknife 5y ago
  This is the USA. You are allowed to insult the government.
  - abduhl 5y ago
    You’re allowed to insult the government. You’re not allowed to lie to the government when filing substantive documents.
    - next_xibalba 5y ago
      What is the substantive effect on the public (aka "investors") if this value in this field on this form was incorrect? This is a tempest in a teapot. People who don't like Musk are pointing to it and saying, "See? SEE!? He is a liar. He is bad." But the reality is, this doesn't actually hurt anyone and its not really a big deal at all. But let's take the least charitable interpretation and play it out: Musk filled out the form himself. He intentionally with malice aforethought lied. The day after the SEC form becomes public, he takes a board seat. What is the material damage done to the public? Twitter shareholders got a huge 2-day pop. That would have happened regardless of Elon's intent.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - SantalBlush 5y ago
    >You are allowed to insult the government. That's entirely irrelevant. The point is that his past behavior shows a pattern of disregarding financial laws.
weird-eye-issue 5y ago
It's ironic you call it out as a technicality because whether a lawyer or Musk filled out the form is itself a technicality
sanderjd 5y ago
Yeah this isn't how contracts work. You don't get to say "what do I know, it was prepared by an attorney".
- onedognight 5y ago
  > Yeah this isn't how contracts work. You don't get to say "what do I know, it was prepared by an attorney". Yes, you do. Many crimes, like tax evasion, require “willful” violation, so blaming your tax attorney is a valid defense.
  - sanderjd 5y ago
    This is not tax evasion.
- rowanG077 5y ago
  What? Of course it does. There are many cases that if you can prove you didn't know you get away scot-free.
kgwgk 5y ago
> This was almost certainly done by a lawyer working on his behalf. That makes it worse, not less bad. It makes the good-faith-mistake defense untenable.
maxfurman 5y ago
If the difference is not material, then why are there two different forms? Genuine question as this is not my area of expertise
ashtonkem 5y ago
> This was almost certainly done by a lawyer working on his behalf. This is like saying that you can’t be responsible for tax dodging because your accountant filed on your behalf. > This strikes me as a technicality of paperwork that is being seized upon by the media as a way to portray Musk in the worst possible light. Almost all of securities law is “technicalities”, it still has the force of law.

elicash 5y ago

> This was almost certainly done by a lawyer working on his behalf. Are you arguing that when he signs his name and certifies that the (short) form is "true, complete and correct" that he is not responsible because the form was prepared by an attorney of his? > being seized upon by the media How did "the media" seize on this? When I last checked, there were zero articles. And even if they had, why wouldn't discussion be merited?

colechristensen 5y ago
Does it matter? Was there any consequence of filling out a form then doing something different? I have heard it several times already today, but so what a form was filled out wrong, is there any consequence to that that anybody would care about? (I doubt anybody complaining about it actually knows anything about how important it is, it’s just being latched on to because it’s a way to match events with preexisting opinions)
- elicash 5y ago
  Yes. He is currently in court claiming SEC is picking on him on another matter and this (and the fact that the filing was late) is likely going to hurt his case with the judge. And while I don't like speculating, since you're asking me to do so I'll add that it's entirely possible that any misrepresentations here get pursued on its own merits, as well.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    It’s worth pointing out that the SEC is extremely image conscious. They count on their reputation as the hammer of god himself to keep traders in line. Elon repeatedly snubbing them is going to tempt them to pull out all the stops.
    - nullc 5y ago
      SEC's actual power is extremely limited. -- This is why e.g. with ICO scams you see them taking no action at all or imposing a fine that is just a cost-of-doing-business percentage of what they took in from the general public, at least against ICOs that are wealthy enough to keep the SEC tied up in litigation.
  - colechristensen 5y ago
    "He broke the rules!" ok, sure. But why is that form there and what is the consequence of filing one way or the other? I mean besides being punished for doing it wrong, why does that rule exist and what are the effects of filling it out one way or the other? Why is this anything more than an administrative mistake? Did he get some benefit from filing the form that way? ... or, what it seems, is this just a "gotcha!" for people to complain about on the Internet.
    - elicash 5y ago
      "Schedule 13D is intended to provide transparency to the public regarding who these shareholders are and why they have taken a significant stake in the company. The form signifies to the public that a change of control, such as a hostile takeover or proxy fight, might be about to take place so that current shareholders in the company can make informed investing and voting decisions." https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/schedule13d.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/schedule13d.asp
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- xadhominemx 5y ago
  13Ds and Gs have different filing thresholds and requirements
lstamour 5y ago
> When I last checked, there were zero articles. Can I introduce you to Matt Levine? A very popular opinion columnist - you can get his column by email even without a subscription to Bloomberg, but he’s one of the reasons I subscribe. His take on this was emailed out midday yesterday and I enjoyed every minute: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-04/elon-musk-bought-some-twitter https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-04/elon-m... You can find an archive of columns here: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/authors/ARbTQlRLRjE/matthew-s-levine https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/authors/ARbTQlRLRjE/matthe... and the email sign up is at http://www.bloomberg.com/newsletters http://www.bloomberg.com/newsletters (it used to be a bit easier to find… but pick “Money Stuff” from the list)
- iratewizard 5y ago
  I personally find this style of writing pretentious, obnoxious and egotistical.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - lstamour 5y ago
    Yes, it can be. It can also be funny and informative, though. Check out the archives, a lot of topics build on past articles and not everything is a joke, sometimes there are clear and simple explanations of financial terms: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/authors/ARbTQlRLRjE/matthew-s-levine https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/authors/ARbTQlRLRjE/matthe...
  - pmalynin 5y ago
  - unmole 5y ago
    He keep making jokes about how boring and unimportant he is compared to the people he writes about. How do you get pretentious or egotistical?
next_xibalba 5y ago
> How did "the media" seize on this? Let me ask you this: how is it that you are aware of the form and how Musk (or, more likely, a lawyer) filled it out? It is being reported [1]. Every word in an article for a major news outlet is meaningful in some way. Journalists are not provided limitless word count, so decisions have to be made about what is and is not included. Now, one could definitely argue that journalists merely reported on it as they were trying to divine Musk's intentions. But to then interpret this, as the GP has done, as a sign of Musk's dishonesty and lack of integrity is too great a leap (in my opinion). [1] https://news.google.com/search?q=elon+musk+twitter+passive https://news.google.com/search?q=elon+musk+twitter+passive Edit: Also, I love your handle. "Wildcat. Wiiiiiild cat."
- elicash 5y ago
  Those articles are mostly about announcing as a passive investor -- not whether he misled the public in his filings. This collection of articles only further makes the case that the media has mostly reported uncritically his misleading claim. RE: handle, thanks! Also, I have since-posting found one article kinda about this: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/04/elon-musk-thumbs-his-nose-at-the-sec-again-with-twitter-stake.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/04/elon-musk-thumbs-his-nose-at... However, even that article is just about the lateness of the filing. It doesn't mention the debate over whether the filing itself was misleading. And this is the best example I could find!

justapassenger 5y ago

> This was almost certainly done by a lawyer working on his behalf. This strikes me as a technicality of paperwork that is being seized upon by the media as a way to portray Musk in the worst possible light. Elon openly attacks and disregards SEC. He doesn’t have any benefit of the doubt left, when it comes to activities that SEC is suppose to be regulating.

fallingknife 5y ago
This is the USA. You are allowed to insult the government.
- abduhl 5y ago
  You’re allowed to insult the government. You’re not allowed to lie to the government when filing substantive documents.
  - next_xibalba 5y ago
    What is the substantive effect on the public (aka "investors") if this value in this field on this form was incorrect? This is a tempest in a teapot. People who don't like Musk are pointing to it and saying, "See? SEE!? He is a liar. He is bad." But the reality is, this doesn't actually hurt anyone and its not really a big deal at all. But let's take the least charitable interpretation and play it out: Musk filled out the form himself. He intentionally with malice aforethought lied. The day after the SEC form becomes public, he takes a board seat. What is the material damage done to the public? Twitter shareholders got a huge 2-day pop. That would have happened regardless of Elon's intent.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- SantalBlush 5y ago
  >You are allowed to insult the government. That's entirely irrelevant. The point is that his past behavior shows a pattern of disregarding financial laws.

weird-eye-issue 5y ago

It's ironic you call it out as a technicality because whether a lawyer or Musk filled out the form is itself a technicality

sanderjd 5y ago

Yeah this isn't how contracts work. You don't get to say "what do I know, it was prepared by an attorney".

onedognight 5y ago
> Yeah this isn't how contracts work. You don't get to say "what do I know, it was prepared by an attorney". Yes, you do. Many crimes, like tax evasion, require “willful” violation, so blaming your tax attorney is a valid defense.
- sanderjd 5y ago
  This is not tax evasion.
rowanG077 5y ago
What? Of course it does. There are many cases that if you can prove you didn't know you get away scot-free.

kgwgk 5y ago

> This was almost certainly done by a lawyer working on his behalf. That makes it worse, not less bad. It makes the good-faith-mistake defense untenable.

maxfurman 5y ago

If the difference is not material, then why are there two different forms? Genuine question as this is not my area of expertise

ashtonkem 5y ago

> This was almost certainly done by a lawyer working on his behalf. This is like saying that you can’t be responsible for tax dodging because your accountant filed on your behalf. > This strikes me as a technicality of paperwork that is being seized upon by the media as a way to portray Musk in the worst possible light. Almost all of securities law is “technicalities”, it still has the force of law.