4 ms·

I’ve come to disregard Gibson’s disdain for deviated works. Disregarding Gibson’s authority and deviating on his art in a way that pleases the creator is very

I’ve come to disregard Gibson’s disdain for deviated works. Disregarding Gibson’s authority and deviating on his art in a way that pleases the creator is very punk in spirit.

ipnon 5y ago
In his defense, there are few things more punk than disdain for derivatives and veneration for originality and progenitors. Punks are a conservative bunch. They're still playing the same records from 50 years ago like they came out today.
- rainonmoon 5y ago
  Plenty of punks are making and listening to new music. Your nearest major city undoubtedly has a punk scene in which people play shows, record and put out each other's albums, and otherwise build a community very much focused on the present and future. Are they stuck 50 years in the past or is your idea of them?
- yike321123 5y ago
  Honestly, the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it. I guess to say it more plainly it's what you see the rock or rap genres of today as. While very few people "innovate" just like the music industry the writing industry is a monopoly full of those whose only interest is in revenue generation and shiny lights rather than the actual message. While it may be fun to rather generalize and insult others to put on the face of superiority. Maybe think bigger.
  - the_af 5y ago
    > "the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it" Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. Now it's just a trope. So I disagree with what some are saying that cyberpunk is currently used to convey a message; it's not, in general. It's used to convey a trope that's lost most of its barb. All in my opinion, of course. And Gibson's.
    - glenstein 5y ago
      >Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. I have to express a hard disagree here. I think the message can be made at higher or lower resolutions, in vague or deep ways, and can comment not just on broad vague themes but in deep ways about specific mechanisms. The merit and pertinence of the message as radical criticism is going to have everything to do with ground level execution of details, depth of world building, clarity of vision, etc., which will turn out different depending on any particular media. I do think it's fair to say that most things downwind from Neuromancer can be fairly assessed as tropey, but I think that's a sturgeon's law thing rather than something unique about the genre as distinct from other genres.
    - pydry 5y ago
      >Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. "The Nazis are evil" is also an overused trope and is hardly radical but by reusing it it helps protect us on a civilizational level from actual nazis. Tropes can be sort of like cultural T cells. I'd rather see more "nazis are bad" and cyberpunk stories and less disney shit for this reason alone. It'll start getting old for me when the risk of it coming true goes away.
      - the_af 5y ago
        Well, but evil evolves and the pitfalls of society do too. You cannot stick to representations of the past. Also, cyberpunk was supposed to be a vision of the future (used as an excuse to look at the then-present time)! More books and games about how evil the Nazis were, unless presented in an innovative way, feel derivative and boring to me. I don't think Gibson would object to a cyberpunk game that went beyond the aesthetics and merely replicating a message that has become a trope.
        pydry 5y ago
        Most books and games feel derivative and boring to me. That isnt about the use of well worn tropes thats just sturgeons law in action.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
    >> Honestly, the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it. Yes, well, like punk-punk. See Jello Biaffra and The Melvins, "Those dumb punk kids will buy anything": Hey, we're back Show us how much you care The merch booth's right over there And if our scam works What a bandwagon it will be https://genius.com/Jello-biafra-those-dumb-punk-kids-will-buy-anything-lyrics https://genius.com/Jello-biafra-those-dumb-punk-kids-will-bu... And music: https://youtu.be/reUcpCVMUag https://youtu.be/reUcpCVMUag

I’ve come to disregard Gibson’s disdain for deviated works. Disregarding Gibson’s authority and deviating on his art in a way that pleases the creator is very punk in spirit.

ipnon 5y ago

In his defense, there are few things more punk than disdain for derivatives and veneration for originality and progenitors. Punks are a conservative bunch. They're still playing the same records from 50 years ago like they came out today.

rainonmoon 5y ago
Plenty of punks are making and listening to new music. Your nearest major city undoubtedly has a punk scene in which people play shows, record and put out each other's albums, and otherwise build a community very much focused on the present and future. Are they stuck 50 years in the past or is your idea of them?
yike321123 5y ago
Honestly, the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it. I guess to say it more plainly it's what you see the rock or rap genres of today as. While very few people "innovate" just like the music industry the writing industry is a monopoly full of those whose only interest is in revenue generation and shiny lights rather than the actual message. While it may be fun to rather generalize and insult others to put on the face of superiority. Maybe think bigger.
- the_af 5y ago
  > "the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it" Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. Now it's just a trope. So I disagree with what some are saying that cyberpunk is currently used to convey a message; it's not, in general. It's used to convey a trope that's lost most of its barb. All in my opinion, of course. And Gibson's.
  - glenstein 5y ago
    >Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. I have to express a hard disagree here. I think the message can be made at higher or lower resolutions, in vague or deep ways, and can comment not just on broad vague themes but in deep ways about specific mechanisms. The merit and pertinence of the message as radical criticism is going to have everything to do with ground level execution of details, depth of world building, clarity of vision, etc., which will turn out different depending on any particular media. I do think it's fair to say that most things downwind from Neuromancer can be fairly assessed as tropey, but I think that's a sturgeon's law thing rather than something unique about the genre as distinct from other genres.
  - pydry 5y ago
    >Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. "The Nazis are evil" is also an overused trope and is hardly radical but by reusing it it helps protect us on a civilizational level from actual nazis. Tropes can be sort of like cultural T cells. I'd rather see more "nazis are bad" and cyberpunk stories and less disney shit for this reason alone. It'll start getting old for me when the risk of it coming true goes away.
    - the_af 5y ago
      Well, but evil evolves and the pitfalls of society do too. You cannot stick to representations of the past. Also, cyberpunk was supposed to be a vision of the future (used as an excuse to look at the then-present time)! More books and games about how evil the Nazis were, unless presented in an innovative way, feel derivative and boring to me. I don't think Gibson would object to a cyberpunk game that went beyond the aesthetics and merely replicating a message that has become a trope.
      - pydry 5y ago
        Most books and games feel derivative and boring to me. That isnt about the use of well worn tropes thats just sturgeons law in action.
- YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
  >> Honestly, the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it. Yes, well, like punk-punk. See Jello Biaffra and The Melvins, "Those dumb punk kids will buy anything": Hey, we're back Show us how much you care The merch booth's right over there And if our scam works What a bandwagon it will be https://genius.com/Jello-biafra-those-dumb-punk-kids-will-buy-anything-lyrics https://genius.com/Jello-biafra-those-dumb-punk-kids-will-bu... And music: https://youtu.be/reUcpCVMUag https://youtu.be/reUcpCVMUag