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My position is that Russia's Article 51 legal justification for the invasion is a stretch at best, but that the US policy of unnecessary, aggressive NATO expans

My position is that Russia's Article 51 legal justification for the invasion is a stretch at best, but that the US policy of unnecessary, aggressive NATO expansion [1] baited Putin into this war whereas he was very clear Ukrainian NATO membership was a red line for him. We also made no effort to encourage Ukraine to honor the Minsk accords which would have almost certainly prevented this. If Mexico was hostile and Russia was in the process of working with them to put nukes in Tijuana I wonder if the US would sit idly by? Meanwhile was have Condoleezza Rice without a hint of irony on the news agreeing that invading a sovereign country is a war crime (does Iraq ring a bell?) I see my point of view reflected only in alternative, independent media. This includes, for example, Pulitzer-prize winning journalist Chris Hedges who had years of his work purged from YouTube simply because he had a show on RT which was never once sympathetic to Putin. My anti-war, pro-diplomacy POV is banned from corporate media, and flagged/downvoted into oblivion on Reddit and even Hacker News. From my perspective most supporting sending arms and money to Ukraine has been the victim of a policy campaign by the arms industry which has already generated windfall arms sales to Ukraine and now Germany (!). So am I surprised by this story? No. I've been seeing a banned perspective on this conflict in the US from day 1. [1] “We reiterate the decision made at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become a member of the Alliance” June 2021 https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185000.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185000.htm

gspr 5y ago
US policy isn't "expanding" NATO. NATO expands because free, sovereign nations apply to join. Name a single country that is in NATO against its own will due to "US policy".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kreeben 5y ago
>> he was very clear Ukrainian NATO membership was a red line for him Whereas in the free world, no one, not even Putin, should and absolutely will not have a say in other nations agreements, because that is a preposterous idea that no supporter of democracy would even consider to be a valid stance.
- rocknor 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
- user3939382 5y ago
  Unfortunately that's just not a standard that exists in reality. That's definitely not the policy of the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
kcb 5y ago
Your perspective is the same tired idea that the US is the only country that controls world foreign policy and everyone else just plays along. What of the Ukrainian people?
- user3939382 5y ago
  Here's the US government explicitly picking the leaders of the Ukrainian government before they were put in place https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 Not to mention that leading up to this transition of power we backed a violent coup of their democratically elected government in 2014. What of the Ukrainian people in Eastern Ukraine who have been getting bombed for 7 years in a civil war? The Ukrainian people through their government agreed to the Minsk accords which would have prevented this but were then never honored. I wouldn't say this idea is tired at all, it's the opposite, it's banned and unspoken on corporate media that serves as the mouthpiece for the US government and arms industry.
  - artem247 5y ago
    [dead]
  - megous 5y ago
    > What of the Ukrainian people in Eastern Ukraine who have been getting bombed for 7 years in a civil war? What about them, exactly? https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/511327 https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/5... There was a major decrease in ceasefire violations in 2020 and 2021. Looks like to Russia that sounded like it's time to escalate and fix "the problem" whatever that is, by starting a major war and invading straight to Kyiv of all places. I'm sure poor people of Donbas will benefit greatly from a major escalation caused by Russia, that's going to reverse all this. Whole year of reported civilian casualties by OSCE now happen in a day. > The Ukrainian people through their government agreed to the Minsk accords which would have prevented this but were then never honored. Why OSCE SMM observations of agreement violating weapons are consistenly much higher in the separatist areas, by a large margin? (80/20 or so)
older 5y ago
> he was very clear Ukrainian NATO membership was a red line for him No, he wasn't. That's just another bullshit excuse manufactured to justify this criminal invasion. Here, read it from the man himself: http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/21598 http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/21598
- user3939382 5y ago
  > No, he wasn't The Hill, April 2021 "Putin draws a ‘red line’ on Ukraine, and he means it" https://thehill.com/opinion/international/550036-putin-draws-a-red-line-on-ukraine-and-he-means-it/ https://thehill.com/opinion/international/550036-putin-draws... The Ukrainian Weekly, June 2021 "Following summit, Kremlin says NATO membership for Ukraine would be a ‘red line’" https://www.ukrweekly.com/uwwp/following-summit-kremlin-says-nato-membership-for-ukraine-would-be-a-red-line/ https://www.ukrweekly.com/uwwp/following-summit-kremlin-says... Reuters, September 2021 "Kremlin says NATO expansion in Ukraine is a 'red line' for Putin" https://www.reuters.com/world/kremlin-says-nato-expansion-ukraine-crosses-red-line-putin-2021-09-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/kremlin-says-nato-expansion-uk... ABC News, November 2021 "Putin warns West: Moscow has 'red line' about Ukraine, NATO" https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/putin-warns-west-moscow-red-line-ukraine-nato-81466257 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/putin-warns-w...
  - older 5y ago
    Exactly. So they were completely fine with NATO, but in 2021 it suddenly started being a problem.

gspr 5y ago

US policy isn't "expanding" NATO. NATO expands because free, sovereign nations apply to join. Name a single country that is in NATO against its own will due to "US policy".

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

kreeben 5y ago

>> he was very clear Ukrainian NATO membership was a red line for him Whereas in the free world, no one, not even Putin, should and absolutely will not have a say in other nations agreements, because that is a preposterous idea that no supporter of democracy would even consider to be a valid stance.

rocknor 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
user3939382 5y ago
Unfortunately that's just not a standard that exists in reality. That's definitely not the policy of the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

kcb 5y ago

Your perspective is the same tired idea that the US is the only country that controls world foreign policy and everyone else just plays along. What of the Ukrainian people?

user3939382 5y ago
Here's the US government explicitly picking the leaders of the Ukrainian government before they were put in place https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 Not to mention that leading up to this transition of power we backed a violent coup of their democratically elected government in 2014. What of the Ukrainian people in Eastern Ukraine who have been getting bombed for 7 years in a civil war? The Ukrainian people through their government agreed to the Minsk accords which would have prevented this but were then never honored. I wouldn't say this idea is tired at all, it's the opposite, it's banned and unspoken on corporate media that serves as the mouthpiece for the US government and arms industry.
- artem247 5y ago
  [dead]
- megous 5y ago
  > What of the Ukrainian people in Eastern Ukraine who have been getting bombed for 7 years in a civil war? What about them, exactly? https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/511327 https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/5... There was a major decrease in ceasefire violations in 2020 and 2021. Looks like to Russia that sounded like it's time to escalate and fix "the problem" whatever that is, by starting a major war and invading straight to Kyiv of all places. I'm sure poor people of Donbas will benefit greatly from a major escalation caused by Russia, that's going to reverse all this. Whole year of reported civilian casualties by OSCE now happen in a day. > The Ukrainian people through their government agreed to the Minsk accords which would have prevented this but were then never honored. Why OSCE SMM observations of agreement violating weapons are consistenly much higher in the separatist areas, by a large margin? (80/20 or so)

older 5y ago

> he was very clear Ukrainian NATO membership was a red line for him No, he wasn't. That's just another bullshit excuse manufactured to justify this criminal invasion. Here, read it from the man himself: http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/21598 http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/21598

user3939382 5y ago
> No, he wasn't The Hill, April 2021 "Putin draws a ‘red line’ on Ukraine, and he means it" https://thehill.com/opinion/international/550036-putin-draws-a-red-line-on-ukraine-and-he-means-it/ https://thehill.com/opinion/international/550036-putin-draws... The Ukrainian Weekly, June 2021 "Following summit, Kremlin says NATO membership for Ukraine would be a ‘red line’" https://www.ukrweekly.com/uwwp/following-summit-kremlin-says-nato-membership-for-ukraine-would-be-a-red-line/ https://www.ukrweekly.com/uwwp/following-summit-kremlin-says... Reuters, September 2021 "Kremlin says NATO expansion in Ukraine is a 'red line' for Putin" https://www.reuters.com/world/kremlin-says-nato-expansion-ukraine-crosses-red-line-putin-2021-09-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/kremlin-says-nato-expansion-uk... ABC News, November 2021 "Putin warns West: Moscow has 'red line' about Ukraine, NATO" https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/putin-warns-west-moscow-red-line-ukraine-nato-81466257 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/putin-warns-w...
- older 5y ago
  Exactly. So they were completely fine with NATO, but in 2021 it suddenly started being a problem.