9 ms·

They sold the company to new owners on Friday who then tried to liquidate it. Gazprom Germania is the counterpart to Gas dealers and utilities. It then has an i

They sold the company to new owners on Friday who then tried to liquidate it. Gazprom Germania is the counterpart to Gas dealers and utilities. It then has an intra-company agreement with Gazprom Russia. If they had liquidated, those contracts would have been gone and the Gas dealers & utilities would have had to renegotiate new contracts with Gazprom Russia. This would have allowed them to require payments in Rubles instead of Euros.

tazjin 5y ago
From what I've read, the contracts between Gazprom Germany and Gazprom Export (on the Russian side) do not have a fixed settlement currency. > This would have allowed them to require payments in Rubles instead of Euros "allowed" is a funny word - this situation is way past a point where cross-border contracts on either side hold any legal value. How are you going to hold anyone accountable for breach of contract?
- ganzuul 5y ago
  One side does it with assassination.
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    And the other does with suiciding.
    - ganzuul 5y ago
      Germany??
      - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
        I was mostly targeting USA with that comment. But germans have also murdered a lot of people not abiding by the societies rules, especially east germans back in the day.
  - _3u10 5y ago
    Yes but let’s not bring that up, it makes us look like a tinpot dictatorship nationalizing assets and assassinating people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinations_by_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinations_by_th...
    - Traster 5y ago
      This is a dispute between Germany and Russia. I'm not sure what US assassinations of middle eastern war lords have to do with it.
      - 1over137 5y ago
        Hmmm, the larger dispute is between NATO and Russia. The USA is the head of NATO.
        ganzuul 5y ago
        If this insane idea that the sovereign nations of Europe have no agency of their own comes from American "news"-branded edutainment, I dearly suggest you defenestrate your television set. It is clearly rotting minds.
        mrguyorama 5y ago
        It tends to come from russian propaganda efforts. They have to make this look like they're fighting the US and not a bunch of sovereign, not enemy nations.
        _3u10 5y ago
        For a “sovereign” nation Germany is awfully dependent on Putin for energy and the US for defense. My position is not that Germany has no agency it’s that it traded away it’s much of its agency to appease the Greens. These opinions come not from American TV but from my relatives. Freistaat Bayern uber alles! Sorry about taking over Europe again, hope you are enjoying the EU dictating your countries economic fortunes.
- adonovan 5y ago
  I've wondered about that question. Germany is not at war with Russia, Gazprom is a publicly traded company, and there are international courts that arbitrate such matters and could yet find the German government at fault. My non-lawyerly gut feeling is that, for better or worse, the trend of the last 30 years has been that the international mechanisms for enforcing contracts and property rights are now the strongest force in the legal universe, stronger than sovereignty and in some cases even human rights.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    There is a lae, ftom what I've read, that requires sqle fo certain companies running critical infrastructure to be communicated and approved. Gazprom didn't do so, the German subsidiary was put under government control (not legal ownership) because of that. Honestly, I'm quite surprised how consistently and tough the new government plays the Ukraine crisis.
- tedivm 5y ago
  Can you back that up with a source? It's the opposite of what basically everyone has been saying and I can't find anything that even hints that there isn't a fixed settlement currency in their contracts. Russia has been trying to push this issue for weeks, while Germany and others are refusing to pay in anything but euros.
  - op00to 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - zivkovicp 5y ago
  - tazjin 5y ago
    So most of this stuff is not public, so there is no single source to point you to, but from what people have puzzled together on various forums the structure is approximately this (corrections welcome): ПАО Gazprom (the _actual_ Gazprom; ПАО is a Russian joint-stock company) owns another Russian company (Gazprom Export OOO; OOO is a Russian LLC), which in turn owned Gazprom Germania GmbH (GmbH is a German LLC). ПАО Gazprom sold gas to Gazprom Export, which in turn sold gas to Gazprom Germania, which in turn sells the gas to the actual European companies. The change in Russian law which switches the currency to rubles affects the transactions between Gazprom Export OOO and Gazprom Germania GmbH (which were previously both owned by Russia), which made the settlement an "internal" affair of Gazprom for German exports. (This stuff is fairly well established and you can look at the German & Russian company registers, the legal text of the Russian decree etc. for more detailed information. The next part is less well understood) Previously this settlement took place through Gazprom Germania sending money from its German account(s) to an account of held in Gazprombank Luxembourg (GPB International S.A., a Luxembourgian Public Limited Company). This account may be a correspondence account for a Gazprombank Russia account owned by Gazprom Export, it's unclear. These funds can be frozen by the EU (and I think are, leading to the Russian claim that they're currently supplying some gas for "free"). With the law change in Russia, this transfer must now happen to a new type of currency account established by Gazprombank Russia (though it's unclear / not publicly known how those are backed, e.g. whether it's also through correspondent accounts at GBP International S.A.) where it is automatically sold and converted into rubles, which are then transferred to Gazprom Export in Russia. Now an important bit that most people don't seem to get is that none of this affects pricing, it's akin to a change in payment method. The supply contracts between e.g. the European gas purchasers and Gazprom Germania have complicated pricing schemes which are likely tied to one or more currencies (EUR & USD) and Russia is sticking to those pricing agremeents - but insisting on changing how the settlement happens. What is kind of unclear at the moment is what Gazprom stands to gain from the sale (and subsequent (attempted?) liquidation of Gazprom Germania). There are a handful of theories about this, but in practice we probably won't know for a while.
- laurent92 5y ago
  Doesn’t the ITO (International Trade Organization) regulate international contacts with allowed and non allowed sanctions? I think Western states are currently tied to it, they can’t just impose “whatever” sanctions, and if we don’t, it would be legal for Russia to impose sanctions upon us. Currently Russia has no right to sanction us, so anything they do is a further breach of ITO, which further deepens their case. Diplomacy is important. The good guy has to respect the rules, or at least write them so we pretend that there are rules we adhere to.
  - tazjin 5y ago
    > they can’t just impose “whatever” sanctions They can and they do. Enforcing any kind of international agreements in this situation is pure fiction. > The good guy has to respect the rules The existence of a bad guy doesn't imply the existence of a good guy.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > Doesn’t the ITO (International Trade Organization) regulate international contacts Venue depends on the contract. ITO only has jurisdiction where countries have submitted to it.
  - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
    I'm concerned about the use of sanctions, and the individual targeting of wealthy individuals as being anathema to the Rule of Law, property rights, and free exchange. The dollar is inflating at the same time the reserve currency status is threatened, and we Americans, via our allies, are appropriating the stuff of foreigners, seizing boats, currency, gold, and property. I think >400B has been seized at this point. How long until we move from "Russia Bad!" to other groups, and start turning inward onto ourselves, seizing their property because they are politically unpopular?
    - tazjin 5y ago
      Russia is also consistently referring to the asset freeze as the Western countries defaulting on their obligations, which will resonate with countries that are not in the closest circle of the US.
LatteLazy 5y ago
Given the collapse(-ing) value of the Ruble, why would they want that?
- albertopv 5y ago
  Ruble went down but then fully recovered
  - petre 5y ago
    Yup. Not fully but close enough. Too bad. https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=RUB https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=RUB
  - LatteLazy 5y ago
    I stand corrected! I thought it was still way down.
  - throw_5202 5y ago
    It's not a real exchange rate because there is no free exchange. Russian exporters forced to exchange 80% of hard currency to rubles. An individual can get maximum $10k in cash until at least 9th September: https://www.cbr.ru/eng/press/event/?id=12744 https://www.cbr.ru/eng/press/event/?id=12744 (and there are similar limits on international payments/transfers). When there is no free exchange rate is not very meaningful.
usr1106 5y ago
> new owners This was a completely fraudulent construct. 100% of the voting rights were sold for the equivalent of 1 Euro to a single person with no serious business background (has dealt with cars and performed as a DJ). This is a company with billions of turnover. And 99.99999% of the ownership was bought back by the the company itself.

tazjin 5y ago

From what I've read, the contracts between Gazprom Germany and Gazprom Export (on the Russian side) do not have a fixed settlement currency. > This would have allowed them to require payments in Rubles instead of Euros "allowed" is a funny word - this situation is way past a point where cross-border contracts on either side hold any legal value. How are you going to hold anyone accountable for breach of contract?

ganzuul 5y ago
One side does it with assassination.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  And the other does with suiciding.
  - ganzuul 5y ago
    Germany??
    - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
      I was mostly targeting USA with that comment. But germans have also murdered a lot of people not abiding by the societies rules, especially east germans back in the day.
- _3u10 5y ago
  Yes but let’s not bring that up, it makes us look like a tinpot dictatorship nationalizing assets and assassinating people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinations_by_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinations_by_th...
  - Traster 5y ago
    This is a dispute between Germany and Russia. I'm not sure what US assassinations of middle eastern war lords have to do with it.
    - 1over137 5y ago
      Hmmm, the larger dispute is between NATO and Russia. The USA is the head of NATO.
      - ganzuul 5y ago
        If this insane idea that the sovereign nations of Europe have no agency of their own comes from American "news"-branded edutainment, I dearly suggest you defenestrate your television set. It is clearly rotting minds.
        mrguyorama 5y ago
        It tends to come from russian propaganda efforts. They have to make this look like they're fighting the US and not a bunch of sovereign, not enemy nations.
        _3u10 5y ago
        For a “sovereign” nation Germany is awfully dependent on Putin for energy and the US for defense. My position is not that Germany has no agency it’s that it traded away it’s much of its agency to appease the Greens. These opinions come not from American TV but from my relatives. Freistaat Bayern uber alles! Sorry about taking over Europe again, hope you are enjoying the EU dictating your countries economic fortunes.
adonovan 5y ago
I've wondered about that question. Germany is not at war with Russia, Gazprom is a publicly traded company, and there are international courts that arbitrate such matters and could yet find the German government at fault. My non-lawyerly gut feeling is that, for better or worse, the trend of the last 30 years has been that the international mechanisms for enforcing contracts and property rights are now the strongest force in the legal universe, stronger than sovereignty and in some cases even human rights.
- hef19898 5y ago
  There is a lae, ftom what I've read, that requires sqle fo certain companies running critical infrastructure to be communicated and approved. Gazprom didn't do so, the German subsidiary was put under government control (not legal ownership) because of that. Honestly, I'm quite surprised how consistently and tough the new government plays the Ukraine crisis.
tedivm 5y ago
Can you back that up with a source? It's the opposite of what basically everyone has been saying and I can't find anything that even hints that there isn't a fixed settlement currency in their contracts. Russia has been trying to push this issue for weeks, while Germany and others are refusing to pay in anything but euros.
- op00to 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - zivkovicp 5y ago
- tazjin 5y ago
  So most of this stuff is not public, so there is no single source to point you to, but from what people have puzzled together on various forums the structure is approximately this (corrections welcome): ПАО Gazprom (the _actual_ Gazprom; ПАО is a Russian joint-stock company) owns another Russian company (Gazprom Export OOO; OOO is a Russian LLC), which in turn owned Gazprom Germania GmbH (GmbH is a German LLC). ПАО Gazprom sold gas to Gazprom Export, which in turn sold gas to Gazprom Germania, which in turn sells the gas to the actual European companies. The change in Russian law which switches the currency to rubles affects the transactions between Gazprom Export OOO and Gazprom Germania GmbH (which were previously both owned by Russia), which made the settlement an "internal" affair of Gazprom for German exports. (This stuff is fairly well established and you can look at the German & Russian company registers, the legal text of the Russian decree etc. for more detailed information. The next part is less well understood) Previously this settlement took place through Gazprom Germania sending money from its German account(s) to an account of held in Gazprombank Luxembourg (GPB International S.A., a Luxembourgian Public Limited Company). This account may be a correspondence account for a Gazprombank Russia account owned by Gazprom Export, it's unclear. These funds can be frozen by the EU (and I think are, leading to the Russian claim that they're currently supplying some gas for "free"). With the law change in Russia, this transfer must now happen to a new type of currency account established by Gazprombank Russia (though it's unclear / not publicly known how those are backed, e.g. whether it's also through correspondent accounts at GBP International S.A.) where it is automatically sold and converted into rubles, which are then transferred to Gazprom Export in Russia. Now an important bit that most people don't seem to get is that none of this affects pricing, it's akin to a change in payment method. The supply contracts between e.g. the European gas purchasers and Gazprom Germania have complicated pricing schemes which are likely tied to one or more currencies (EUR & USD) and Russia is sticking to those pricing agremeents - but insisting on changing how the settlement happens. What is kind of unclear at the moment is what Gazprom stands to gain from the sale (and subsequent (attempted?) liquidation of Gazprom Germania). There are a handful of theories about this, but in practice we probably won't know for a while.
laurent92 5y ago
Doesn’t the ITO (International Trade Organization) regulate international contacts with allowed and non allowed sanctions? I think Western states are currently tied to it, they can’t just impose “whatever” sanctions, and if we don’t, it would be legal for Russia to impose sanctions upon us. Currently Russia has no right to sanction us, so anything they do is a further breach of ITO, which further deepens their case. Diplomacy is important. The good guy has to respect the rules, or at least write them so we pretend that there are rules we adhere to.
- tazjin 5y ago
  > they can’t just impose “whatever” sanctions They can and they do. Enforcing any kind of international agreements in this situation is pure fiction. > The good guy has to respect the rules The existence of a bad guy doesn't imply the existence of a good guy.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Doesn’t the ITO (International Trade Organization) regulate international contacts Venue depends on the contract. ITO only has jurisdiction where countries have submitted to it.
- OrvalWintermute 5y ago
  I'm concerned about the use of sanctions, and the individual targeting of wealthy individuals as being anathema to the Rule of Law, property rights, and free exchange. The dollar is inflating at the same time the reserve currency status is threatened, and we Americans, via our allies, are appropriating the stuff of foreigners, seizing boats, currency, gold, and property. I think >400B has been seized at this point. How long until we move from "Russia Bad!" to other groups, and start turning inward onto ourselves, seizing their property because they are politically unpopular?
  - tazjin 5y ago
    Russia is also consistently referring to the asset freeze as the Western countries defaulting on their obligations, which will resonate with countries that are not in the closest circle of the US.

LatteLazy 5y ago

Given the collapse(-ing) value of the Ruble, why would they want that?

albertopv 5y ago
Ruble went down but then fully recovered
- petre 5y ago
  Yup. Not fully but close enough. Too bad. https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=RUB https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=RUB
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  I stand corrected! I thought it was still way down.
- throw_5202 5y ago
  It's not a real exchange rate because there is no free exchange. Russian exporters forced to exchange 80% of hard currency to rubles. An individual can get maximum $10k in cash until at least 9th September: https://www.cbr.ru/eng/press/event/?id=12744 https://www.cbr.ru/eng/press/event/?id=12744 (and there are similar limits on international payments/transfers). When there is no free exchange rate is not very meaningful.

usr1106 5y ago

> new owners This was a completely fraudulent construct. 100% of the voting rights were sold for the equivalent of 1 Euro to a single person with no serious business background (has dealt with cars and performed as a DJ). This is a company with billions of turnover. And 99.99999% of the ownership was bought back by the the company itself.