9 ms·

It's nice to see Germany start working towards energy independence. I think it's a crucial factor for both national security and a faster migration to more envi

by hugi 5y ago

It's nice to see Germany start working towards energy independence. I think it's a crucial factor for both national security and a faster migration to more environmentally friendly energy sources.

tmalsburg2 5y ago
Where “energy independence” means that Germany becomes dependent on much more expensive LGN from the US. This may still be better than what Germany has now but it’s not independence.
- zirror 5y ago
  It's a step in the right direction, isn't it? LNG can also be imported from other countries and, in the long run, gas dependence should be massively reduced once gas-powered heating is replaced by electronic heading via heat pumps or something like that.
bitL 5y ago
10 years too late... It's going to be Eldorado for US companies buying bankrupting German companies for cheap...
- durnygbur 5y ago
  yes please
- Gareth321 5y ago
  Angela Merkel is squarely to blame here. She was warned about he dangers for the 16 years she was chancellor of Germany, and instead of diversifying, doubled down on Russian oil and gas, and ordered the closure of the remaining nuclear plants. So be it. The people voted for her, and apparently Germans in general are rather anti-nuclear.
  - cinntaile 5y ago
    Angela Merkel did not want to close the plants, but the public opinion forced her hand. The people wanted this.
    - baq 5y ago
      perhaps she didn't properly explain that Putin can and will shut off the supply... or maybe she herself couldn't believe that he's that much of a thug.
      - sho_hn 5y ago
        OP's "the people wanted this" hints at a complicated background. Getting out of nuclear is a long-running social movement in Germany, with Chernobyl as a decisive event. There's a caste of of politicians and private individuals for whom this is generation-defining/a founding myth. It's the kind of thing that arthouse movies (e.g. "Das Ding am Deich") and social documentaries are made about. Discussing, for example, the particular issues of adolescents raised by parents who used to live at the protests parties in the 80s. It bubbled over with Fukushima, the a roiling and boiling mid-life crisis for an entire subculture. Consequences or the Russia variable provided little resistance to the Zeitgeist - the biggest "I told you so" in decades. There was no planning to be done.
  - selfmodruntime 5y ago
    It's almost like spending half of your life and career under the umbrella of the USSR makes people vulnerable to be influenced by russian forces.
logifail 5y ago
> energy independence We use LPG gas (from a tank buried at the bottom of the garden) feeding a gas boiler to heat our house. I'm all for energy independence, and would love to switch to a more environmentally-friendly energy source, but I'm deeply concerned about how much this will cost me, and even if I did have the money, based on reports in local media, getting a heating engineer in would take many months. Half a continent wants to switch energy supply "now" and the world was already suffering a serious supply chain crisis. Changing quickly may simply not be possible, never mind affordable.
- Toutouxc 5y ago
  That's interesting, so the tank is permanent and you refill it somehow? If yes, how often? Can you do the same thing with natural gas? Does the place you live in have natural gas?
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    It depends on the heating need and size of the tank. In the US, there is nothing unusual about a 1,000 gallon tank that you might fill twice a year.
  - NortySpock 5y ago
    Not your parent poster, but the tanks are commonly installed above-ground in the rural USA. It is propane (C3H8), which is liquid under pressure. Tanks are refilled as needed depending on usage via a tanker truck. I assume this is monthly but I don't personally have one. In the US, natural gas normally refers to methane (CH4) heating, attached to a city methane heating grid. I pay a monthly bill per cubic foot of methane burned. Currently my water heater and furnace are methane. I live near Kansas City.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      It depends on tank size and usage. I have small tank I use just for a range and it gets filled once a year—I use less than the minimum.
    - 5y ago
recuter 5y ago
Yeah, they got top minds on this. Top. Minds. Nuclear canceled by the Green Party and pre-March went all in on Russian oil and gas.
- DasIch 5y ago
  Gas is used primarily by heating or industrial processes that require it. It can't be meaningfully substituted with anything else in the short term. To some extent you can't even substitute with gas from other sources because of lack of (connections to) LNG terminals.
  - makomk 5y ago
    The lack of both LNG terminals and adequate connections to ones in other countries is a big part of what people mean when they say Germany went all in on Russian gas. They physically cannot import enough gas from other sources, as I understand it, and this was an intentional and knowing decision despite warnings from other counties.
    - recuter 5y ago
      I am not a Trump fan, but I do enjoy me some, how you guys say, schadenfreude: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpwkdmwui3k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpwkdmwui3k
- baq 5y ago
  makes you think if Green Party is also financed by Russia...
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    I would suppose so, if you see a relatively big organization promoting things that you want to happen why wouldn't you finance them? That Russia would finance the Greens doesn't automatically what the Greens advocate for wrong, or that the Greens are actually traitors, what it does is twofold - start a process whereby the Greens can over time be corrupted (via the money spout), and indicate that whatever the Greens are doing there may be unintended side effects which would be of benefit to Russia.
belorn 5y ago
Start? They have been spending ~$30 billions a year on green energy subsidies for the last 20 years, and a little less than double that for the total energy subsidies. It should be well over a trillion dollars in tax money going into the energy sector this century, which is by far more than any other country in EU. The energy sector get almost as much subsidies as the total funding of the Germany military, 1.5% vs 2% of BNP. It would be interesting to know how much more tax money is needed for an independent and environmentally friendly energy grid if they just continue as they done in the past.

by hugi 5y ago

It's nice to see Germany start working towards energy independence. I think it's a crucial factor for both national security and a faster migration to more environmentally friendly energy sources.

tmalsburg2 5y ago

Where “energy independence” means that Germany becomes dependent on much more expensive LGN from the US. This may still be better than what Germany has now but it’s not independence.

zirror 5y ago
It's a step in the right direction, isn't it? LNG can also be imported from other countries and, in the long run, gas dependence should be massively reduced once gas-powered heating is replaced by electronic heading via heat pumps or something like that.

bitL 5y ago

10 years too late... It's going to be Eldorado for US companies buying bankrupting German companies for cheap...

durnygbur 5y ago
yes please
Gareth321 5y ago
Angela Merkel is squarely to blame here. She was warned about he dangers for the 16 years she was chancellor of Germany, and instead of diversifying, doubled down on Russian oil and gas, and ordered the closure of the remaining nuclear plants. So be it. The people voted for her, and apparently Germans in general are rather anti-nuclear.
- cinntaile 5y ago
  Angela Merkel did not want to close the plants, but the public opinion forced her hand. The people wanted this.
  - baq 5y ago
    perhaps she didn't properly explain that Putin can and will shut off the supply... or maybe she herself couldn't believe that he's that much of a thug.
    - sho_hn 5y ago
      OP's "the people wanted this" hints at a complicated background. Getting out of nuclear is a long-running social movement in Germany, with Chernobyl as a decisive event. There's a caste of of politicians and private individuals for whom this is generation-defining/a founding myth. It's the kind of thing that arthouse movies (e.g. "Das Ding am Deich") and social documentaries are made about. Discussing, for example, the particular issues of adolescents raised by parents who used to live at the protests parties in the 80s. It bubbled over with Fukushima, the a roiling and boiling mid-life crisis for an entire subculture. Consequences or the Russia variable provided little resistance to the Zeitgeist - the biggest "I told you so" in decades. There was no planning to be done.
- selfmodruntime 5y ago
  It's almost like spending half of your life and career under the umbrella of the USSR makes people vulnerable to be influenced by russian forces.

logifail 5y ago

> energy independence We use LPG gas (from a tank buried at the bottom of the garden) feeding a gas boiler to heat our house. I'm all for energy independence, and would love to switch to a more environmentally-friendly energy source, but I'm deeply concerned about how much this will cost me, and even if I did have the money, based on reports in local media, getting a heating engineer in would take many months. Half a continent wants to switch energy supply "now" and the world was already suffering a serious supply chain crisis. Changing quickly may simply not be possible, never mind affordable.

Toutouxc 5y ago
That's interesting, so the tank is permanent and you refill it somehow? If yes, how often? Can you do the same thing with natural gas? Does the place you live in have natural gas?
- maxerickson 5y ago
  It depends on the heating need and size of the tank. In the US, there is nothing unusual about a 1,000 gallon tank that you might fill twice a year.
- NortySpock 5y ago
  Not your parent poster, but the tanks are commonly installed above-ground in the rural USA. It is propane (C3H8), which is liquid under pressure. Tanks are refilled as needed depending on usage via a tanker truck. I assume this is monthly but I don't personally have one. In the US, natural gas normally refers to methane (CH4) heating, attached to a city methane heating grid. I pay a monthly bill per cubic foot of methane burned. Currently my water heater and furnace are methane. I live near Kansas City.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    It depends on tank size and usage. I have small tank I use just for a range and it gets filled once a year—I use less than the minimum.
  - 5y ago

recuter 5y ago

Yeah, they got top minds on this. Top. Minds. Nuclear canceled by the Green Party and pre-March went all in on Russian oil and gas.

DasIch 5y ago
Gas is used primarily by heating or industrial processes that require it. It can't be meaningfully substituted with anything else in the short term. To some extent you can't even substitute with gas from other sources because of lack of (connections to) LNG terminals.
- makomk 5y ago
  The lack of both LNG terminals and adequate connections to ones in other countries is a big part of what people mean when they say Germany went all in on Russian gas. They physically cannot import enough gas from other sources, as I understand it, and this was an intentional and knowing decision despite warnings from other counties.
  - recuter 5y ago
    I am not a Trump fan, but I do enjoy me some, how you guys say, schadenfreude: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpwkdmwui3k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpwkdmwui3k
baq 5y ago
makes you think if Green Party is also financed by Russia...
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  I would suppose so, if you see a relatively big organization promoting things that you want to happen why wouldn't you finance them? That Russia would finance the Greens doesn't automatically what the Greens advocate for wrong, or that the Greens are actually traitors, what it does is twofold - start a process whereby the Greens can over time be corrupted (via the money spout), and indicate that whatever the Greens are doing there may be unintended side effects which would be of benefit to Russia.

belorn 5y ago

Start? They have been spending ~$30 billions a year on green energy subsidies for the last 20 years, and a little less than double that for the total energy subsidies. It should be well over a trillion dollars in tax money going into the energy sector this century, which is by far more than any other country in EU. The energy sector get almost as much subsidies as the total funding of the Germany military, 1.5% vs 2% of BNP. It would be interesting to know how much more tax money is needed for an independent and environmentally friendly energy grid if they just continue as they done in the past.