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Steve Jobs was an interesting man who led an unusual and great life, and I have a lot of respect for him for what he's done, but I don't think his "philosophy o

Steve Jobs was an interesting man who led an unusual and great life, and I have a lot of respect for him for what he's done, but I don't think his "philosophy of life" is very practical for average people. By his late 20s, he was at the point of never having to work again. He could work for fun. This doesn't take anything away from him; he worked very hard and produced excellent products. My point is that what worked for him doesn't work for most people. If you are a person like Steve Jobs in an average position, you're looking at a string of 6- to 12-month jobs and eventual unemployment once your CV looks like Ypres. Once you're independently wealthy and don't have to work anymore, it's a really great idea to de-condition yourself from social climbing and people-pleasing and all the other idiocies that enter life when one has to manage others' perceptions of oneself. In fact, it's necessary to do that if you want to do anything great; otherwise, you'll be mired in mediocrity because that's what most people like and want. But if you're a normal person who has to pay the bills, to throw all of that social stupidity to the wind is putting the cart a bit before the horse. If I have kids, I'm not going to tell them to "follow their dreams" or "do what you love, and everything else will take care of itself". We don't live in a good enough world for that. It's just not practical advice.

meric 15y ago
>> If I have kids, I'm not going to tell them to "follow their dreams" or "do what you love, and everything else will take care of itself". We don't live in a good enough world for that. It's just not practical advice. There's more to it than that. If you're going to do something, do it as best as you can, otherwise don't do it so you don't waste your time. To do something as best as you can,... "you have to get it. You have to really grok what it’s all about. It takes a passionate commitment to really thoroughly understand something, chew it up, not just quickly swallow it. Most people don’t take the time to do that." "When you're a carpenter making a beautiful chest of drawers, you're not going to use a piece of plywood on the back, even though it faces the wall and nobody will ever see it. You'll know it's there, so you're going to use a beautiful piece of wood on the back. For you to sleep well at night, the aesthetic, the quality, has to be carried all the way through." So how is this practical? Let's say you're studying a econometrics major in university like I was doing. You know the introductory course's exams will be easy so you skip classes and just cram in the final week. You score 89/100 in the exam. Well good on you, but you didn't really grok what it's all about. You repeat this for the next semester and you score 78/100. Still a good mark, considering you didn't take the time to thoroughly understand it. However, this tactic will stop working once you get into higher level courses, where it depends on your total mastery of the fundamentals. You cannot just "cram" in the final week anymore. I've only recently been able to understand why I was so good in the Engineering part of my "Double Degree in Software Engineering & Commerce", and so bad at the other. I don't spend much time on either's classes and cram only in the final weeks before the exam, but because I spend the time I saved self-learning the bits of engineering that interests me - even though it doesn't match the courses I'm studying, a few semesters down the road all the dots comes together. I didn't self learn anything econometrics related (besides stock trading, some might call it gambling, though) in my time saved from not concentrating on my econometrics classes. I did well at first, but now I am experiencing serious headwind and am not sleeping well at night. This is why I am switching to another commerce major, so I can get another chance to really understand the fundamentals. If I'm going to complete a degree, I am going to (from now on) do it as best as I can. It means I will spend a lot more effort per mark that I will get. But I know I spent the time to throughly understand it. For me to sleep well at night, the quality has to be carried all the way through. I'm sorry if you had to cringe at some of what I wrote, but I felt I had to write it.
- michaelochurch 15y ago
  If you're going to do something, do it as best as you can, otherwise don't do it so you don't waste your time. This sounds good and I like the work ethic, but it's not the most strategic approach. There's something immensely rewarding about doing a really great job at something, about building something that's truly great. Aesthetic completion, perhaps? I would personally much rather work in that way as well: always able to take the time to write great code, never having to do deal with legacy bullshit or ill-considered external demands that compromise the quality. But is that practical? Not for most people. Steve Jobs could pull it off. He was rich and didn't need to keep his job at Apple (one that he'd already lost in '85) so he could actually do great work, and insist on the same from others. The strategic approach is to pretty much stop at "good enough" and move on to something else. That's what most people do at work, and I don't like it but I understand why people work that way. Doing one really great thing is much more rewarding, but it doesn't build a CV, and it only makes a career if a person has a lot more creative control than most of us get. CVs and reputations are built by sticking as many fingers in as many pies as possible. School doesn't prepare people for this. I've worked at a number of companies that consider a 3.9+ GPA a negative in hiring because people with excellent grades tend to be those who insist on doing great work, not the mediocre work (in more quantity per unit time) that most jobs actually require.
  - meric 15y ago
    Of course you can't apply anyone's personal philosophy 100% to your own life. >> But is that practical? Not for most people. But I think that particular part can be practical for many. E.g. when studying. Here's the particular situation you were talking about: You're in debt & working in a large company with lots of legacy stuff, you feel you could do better. What to do: In a large company, what you really want to do isn't to make a great product, create very compatible software or anything. It is to do what your manager or what your manager's manager wants you to do. Listen to what they want and fulfil it as well as possible. If you are going to be a cog in a machine, then you strive to be the best cog in the machine you're going to be! If not, then read below. This isn't a job you like. You're in debt so you need the job. First thing you do would then be remove the debt! In a mortgage? Move out and lease the house or sell it and rent, which ever saves more money. Don't go out every week, go out every month. Delay that macbook pro upgrade for another year. See a big discount on shoes? Buy a couple, but don't wear them yet. Eat the generic brand cereal. Cook yourself, don't eat out. If you don't have time, eat only fruit, vegetables and rice. They are cheap and easy to prepare. If you're going to save money, you do it the best you can. Once you get out of debt and getting some savings, you can refocus on getting another job. If many companies deal with legacy shit, then focus on getting a job at Apple. :) So you don't really want to start another career at 45. Plus you have kids to take care of. You're a father/mother after all. Ahh, so you're a parent, and you rather spend time with your kids. Then spend your time with your kids! Be the best parent you can be! Disclaimer: I'm still in university.
zealoushacker 15y ago
With respect, I submit my comments/arguments: > I don't think his "philosophy of life" is very practical for average people. I think that the notion of people as "average" is the root of the problem. There are no average people. There are individuals, whom may choose to become average by leading an average life. There are other individuals, whom may choose or be coerced into being less than average. And on the other side of average, you have those who by virtue of their choices and the guidance they receive from their mentors, choose to live a better than average life - and follow all or part of the "philosophy of life" that Jobs espoused. >My point is that what worked for him doesn't work for most people. It can work, if people choose to live life based on such a philosophy. >If you are a person like Steve Jobs in an average position, you're looking at a string of 6- to 12-month jobs and eventual unemployment once your CV looks like Ypres. There are two issues with this statement: average by whose measure, and whether one chooses to be average. >otherwise, you'll be mired in mediocrity because that's what most people like and want. But if you're a normal person who has to pay the bills, to throw all of that social stupidity to the wind is putting the cart a bit before the horse. I despise mediocrity with a passion. I hire people based on the best that they offer, and fire them based on what they don't. And I know plenty of people who think similarly. It is how I've lived my life. >But if you're a normal person who has to pay the bills, to throw all of that social stupidity to the wind is putting the cart a bit before the horse. I completely agree that it is "social stupidity" - and that is why I spend hours rooting it out by sharing posts like these :)
- michaelochurch 15y ago
  By "average", I meant "of average means". Whether there are "average people" is a silly argument. When I said "average people", I meant "people of average means". If "average people" means "people of average talent and ambition", then we're talking about people who neither have the talent nor desire to do what Jobs did, so the discussion's irrelevant.
  - jwallaceparker 15y ago
    Doesn't the life of Steve Jobs discredit your argument? From what I understand of his life story, he came from "average means" and achieved his success through his own creative capabilities.
jwallaceparker 15y ago
My father likes to use the quote, "Whether you think you can, or you think you can't - you're right." This is a Henry Ford quote and seems to apply to this situation. You can either believe you can 'follow your dreams' or believe following dreams is reserved for a select few others. Jobs didn't say everyone can become a billionaire. He said everyone can follow their dreams. He's right. >> By his late 20s, he was at the point of never having to work again. He could work for fun. He had been working for fun from the beginning.
- zealoushacker 15y ago
  And he was an adopted child, whom wasn't exactly born into a super-privileged family: "Jobs was adopted by the family of Paul Jobs and Clara Jobs (née Hagopian) who moved to Mountain View, California when he was five years old.[1][2] Paul and Clara later adopted a daughter, Patti. Paul Jobs, a machinist for a company that made lasers, taught his son rudimentary electronics and how to work with his hands.[1] His adoptive mother was an accountant.[18] Asked in a 1995 interview what he wanted to pass on to his children, Jobs replied, "Just to try to be as good a father to them as my father was to me. I think about that every day of my life." When asked about his "adoptive parents," Jobs replied emphatically that Paul and Clara Jobs "were my parents." [18]" -From the Wikipedia article on S. Jobs
- michaelochurch 15y ago
  You can either believe you can 'follow your dreams' or believe following dreams is reserved for a select few others. It's between those two extremes. If I decided my dream was to be a movie star, I'd be out of luck. He had been working for fun from the beginning. He did something really smart. He started working (for fun, as you said) before he had to. At 20, it would have been socially acceptable for him to go back to college. Since he was working but didn't have to work, he could achieve a lot. This, combined with the luck of being substantial after a few years of working life, enabled him to "work for fun" for probably most of his work life.
  - jwallaceparker 15y ago
    > If I decided my dream was to be a movie star, I'd be out of luck. Steve Jobs specifically advised people to do what they love. If your dream were to be a movie star, it would follow that you love to act. There are myriad opportunities for actors to practice acting. So I don't see how you couldn't follow your dreams, i.e. do what you love. > He did something really smart. He started working (for fun, as you said) before he had to. I don't understand how someone's age precludes them from following their dreams. I'm sensing a defeatist attitude. If you are convinced that it's impossible to follow your own dreams, it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. If, instead, you believe that you can follow your dreams, you will look for opportunities to spend your time (even 10 minutes a day at first) following that dream. Perhaps you can respond with the specifics of your personal dream and how it is not possible to follow it so we can steer this discussion in a productive direction.

meric 15y ago

>> If I have kids, I'm not going to tell them to "follow their dreams" or "do what you love, and everything else will take care of itself". We don't live in a good enough world for that. It's just not practical advice. There's more to it than that. If you're going to do something, do it as best as you can, otherwise don't do it so you don't waste your time. To do something as best as you can,... "you have to get it. You have to really grok what it’s all about. It takes a passionate commitment to really thoroughly understand something, chew it up, not just quickly swallow it. Most people don’t take the time to do that." "When you're a carpenter making a beautiful chest of drawers, you're not going to use a piece of plywood on the back, even though it faces the wall and nobody will ever see it. You'll know it's there, so you're going to use a beautiful piece of wood on the back. For you to sleep well at night, the aesthetic, the quality, has to be carried all the way through." So how is this practical? Let's say you're studying a econometrics major in university like I was doing. You know the introductory course's exams will be easy so you skip classes and just cram in the final week. You score 89/100 in the exam. Well good on you, but you didn't really grok what it's all about. You repeat this for the next semester and you score 78/100. Still a good mark, considering you didn't take the time to thoroughly understand it. However, this tactic will stop working once you get into higher level courses, where it depends on your total mastery of the fundamentals. You cannot just "cram" in the final week anymore. I've only recently been able to understand why I was so good in the Engineering part of my "Double Degree in Software Engineering & Commerce", and so bad at the other. I don't spend much time on either's classes and cram only in the final weeks before the exam, but because I spend the time I saved self-learning the bits of engineering that interests me - even though it doesn't match the courses I'm studying, a few semesters down the road all the dots comes together. I didn't self learn anything econometrics related (besides stock trading, some might call it gambling, though) in my time saved from not concentrating on my econometrics classes. I did well at first, but now I am experiencing serious headwind and am not sleeping well at night. This is why I am switching to another commerce major, so I can get another chance to really understand the fundamentals. If I'm going to complete a degree, I am going to (from now on) do it as best as I can. It means I will spend a lot more effort per mark that I will get. But I know I spent the time to throughly understand it. For me to sleep well at night, the quality has to be carried all the way through. I'm sorry if you had to cringe at some of what I wrote, but I felt I had to write it.

michaelochurch 15y ago
If you're going to do something, do it as best as you can, otherwise don't do it so you don't waste your time. This sounds good and I like the work ethic, but it's not the most strategic approach. There's something immensely rewarding about doing a really great job at something, about building something that's truly great. Aesthetic completion, perhaps? I would personally much rather work in that way as well: always able to take the time to write great code, never having to do deal with legacy bullshit or ill-considered external demands that compromise the quality. But is that practical? Not for most people. Steve Jobs could pull it off. He was rich and didn't need to keep his job at Apple (one that he'd already lost in '85) so he could actually do great work, and insist on the same from others. The strategic approach is to pretty much stop at "good enough" and move on to something else. That's what most people do at work, and I don't like it but I understand why people work that way. Doing one really great thing is much more rewarding, but it doesn't build a CV, and it only makes a career if a person has a lot more creative control than most of us get. CVs and reputations are built by sticking as many fingers in as many pies as possible. School doesn't prepare people for this. I've worked at a number of companies that consider a 3.9+ GPA a negative in hiring because people with excellent grades tend to be those who insist on doing great work, not the mediocre work (in more quantity per unit time) that most jobs actually require.
- meric 15y ago
  Of course you can't apply anyone's personal philosophy 100% to your own life. >> But is that practical? Not for most people. But I think that particular part can be practical for many. E.g. when studying. Here's the particular situation you were talking about: You're in debt & working in a large company with lots of legacy stuff, you feel you could do better. What to do: In a large company, what you really want to do isn't to make a great product, create very compatible software or anything. It is to do what your manager or what your manager's manager wants you to do. Listen to what they want and fulfil it as well as possible. If you are going to be a cog in a machine, then you strive to be the best cog in the machine you're going to be! If not, then read below. This isn't a job you like. You're in debt so you need the job. First thing you do would then be remove the debt! In a mortgage? Move out and lease the house or sell it and rent, which ever saves more money. Don't go out every week, go out every month. Delay that macbook pro upgrade for another year. See a big discount on shoes? Buy a couple, but don't wear them yet. Eat the generic brand cereal. Cook yourself, don't eat out. If you don't have time, eat only fruit, vegetables and rice. They are cheap and easy to prepare. If you're going to save money, you do it the best you can. Once you get out of debt and getting some savings, you can refocus on getting another job. If many companies deal with legacy shit, then focus on getting a job at Apple. :) So you don't really want to start another career at 45. Plus you have kids to take care of. You're a father/mother after all. Ahh, so you're a parent, and you rather spend time with your kids. Then spend your time with your kids! Be the best parent you can be! Disclaimer: I'm still in university.

zealoushacker 15y ago

With respect, I submit my comments/arguments: > I don't think his "philosophy of life" is very practical for average people. I think that the notion of people as "average" is the root of the problem. There are no average people. There are individuals, whom may choose to become average by leading an average life. There are other individuals, whom may choose or be coerced into being less than average. And on the other side of average, you have those who by virtue of their choices and the guidance they receive from their mentors, choose to live a better than average life - and follow all or part of the "philosophy of life" that Jobs espoused. >My point is that what worked for him doesn't work for most people. It can work, if people choose to live life based on such a philosophy. >If you are a person like Steve Jobs in an average position, you're looking at a string of 6- to 12-month jobs and eventual unemployment once your CV looks like Ypres. There are two issues with this statement: average by whose measure, and whether one chooses to be average. >otherwise, you'll be mired in mediocrity because that's what most people like and want. But if you're a normal person who has to pay the bills, to throw all of that social stupidity to the wind is putting the cart a bit before the horse. I despise mediocrity with a passion. I hire people based on the best that they offer, and fire them based on what they don't. And I know plenty of people who think similarly. It is how I've lived my life. >But if you're a normal person who has to pay the bills, to throw all of that social stupidity to the wind is putting the cart a bit before the horse. I completely agree that it is "social stupidity" - and that is why I spend hours rooting it out by sharing posts like these :)

michaelochurch 15y ago
By "average", I meant "of average means". Whether there are "average people" is a silly argument. When I said "average people", I meant "people of average means". If "average people" means "people of average talent and ambition", then we're talking about people who neither have the talent nor desire to do what Jobs did, so the discussion's irrelevant.
- jwallaceparker 15y ago
  Doesn't the life of Steve Jobs discredit your argument? From what I understand of his life story, he came from "average means" and achieved his success through his own creative capabilities.

jwallaceparker 15y ago

My father likes to use the quote, "Whether you think you can, or you think you can't - you're right." This is a Henry Ford quote and seems to apply to this situation. You can either believe you can 'follow your dreams' or believe following dreams is reserved for a select few others. Jobs didn't say everyone can become a billionaire. He said everyone can follow their dreams. He's right. >> By his late 20s, he was at the point of never having to work again. He could work for fun. He had been working for fun from the beginning.

zealoushacker 15y ago
And he was an adopted child, whom wasn't exactly born into a super-privileged family: "Jobs was adopted by the family of Paul Jobs and Clara Jobs (née Hagopian) who moved to Mountain View, California when he was five years old.[1][2] Paul and Clara later adopted a daughter, Patti. Paul Jobs, a machinist for a company that made lasers, taught his son rudimentary electronics and how to work with his hands.[1] His adoptive mother was an accountant.[18] Asked in a 1995 interview what he wanted to pass on to his children, Jobs replied, "Just to try to be as good a father to them as my father was to me. I think about that every day of my life." When asked about his "adoptive parents," Jobs replied emphatically that Paul and Clara Jobs "were my parents." [18]" -From the Wikipedia article on S. Jobs
michaelochurch 15y ago
You can either believe you can 'follow your dreams' or believe following dreams is reserved for a select few others. It's between those two extremes. If I decided my dream was to be a movie star, I'd be out of luck. He had been working for fun from the beginning. He did something really smart. He started working (for fun, as you said) before he had to. At 20, it would have been socially acceptable for him to go back to college. Since he was working but didn't have to work, he could achieve a lot. This, combined with the luck of being substantial after a few years of working life, enabled him to "work for fun" for probably most of his work life.
- jwallaceparker 15y ago
  > If I decided my dream was to be a movie star, I'd be out of luck. Steve Jobs specifically advised people to do what they love. If your dream were to be a movie star, it would follow that you love to act. There are myriad opportunities for actors to practice acting. So I don't see how you couldn't follow your dreams, i.e. do what you love. > He did something really smart. He started working (for fun, as you said) before he had to. I don't understand how someone's age precludes them from following their dreams. I'm sensing a defeatist attitude. If you are convinced that it's impossible to follow your own dreams, it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. If, instead, you believe that you can follow your dreams, you will look for opportunities to spend your time (even 10 minutes a day at first) following that dream. Perhaps you can respond with the specifics of your personal dream and how it is not possible to follow it so we can steer this discussion in a productive direction.