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> I cannot imagine anyone here seriously defending this unless you’re just looking to be a contrarian. HN has a large libertarian base who are against regulate

> I cannot imagine anyone here seriously defending this unless you’re just looking to be a contrarian. HN has a large libertarian base who are against regulated unions. They are seen as bad government interference in the free enterprise system. I don't want to start an argument but there's a lot of economics science that supports that belief.

stepbeek 5y ago
What kind of libertarianism? Afaik left-libertarianism is in favour of unions. If it's right-libertarianism you're referencing then can you share some of the "economics science" that promotes it?
- perryizgr8 5y ago
  "Left" libertarianism is an oxymoron. Any philosophy that prioritises the collective over the individual is inherently illiberal.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    The left vs right dichotomy doesn't have too much to do with collectivism vs individualism. For example, social conservatism is a right wing idea, but it is highly collectivistic (prioritizing social mores over individual freedom). Left libertarianism typically means free market economics + democratically organized and owned workplaces + social libertarianism (free love, free religion, free drugs etc). Right libertarianism is similar, but emphasizes contractualism instead of democratic control. Left libertarians typically scoff for example at corporations for their limitations on the personal freedoms of the workers, viewing it as a form of slavery.
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    The very opposite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism "Libertarianism originated as a form of left-wing politics such as anti-authoritarian and anti-state socialists like anarchists,[6] especially social anarchists,[7] but more generally libertarian communists/Marxists and libertarian socialists"
attilaperez 5y ago
Economics is not a science, it's an art. Believe me.
- wickedsickeune 5y ago
  There is no need for "belief", it is literally not a science, it does not adhere to the scientific method.
tsimionescu 5y ago
Well, if your arguments are coming from "economics science", feel free to make them. It's usually very entertaining to see what crazy things economists convince themselves to believe, while also thinking they are doing science.
- olalonde 5y ago
  HN isn't the best place for that (see the many emotionally charged replies to my comment). I just wanted to point out that it was possible to be anti-union without being contrarian.
tikwidd 5y ago
You still have to get from "unions are bad" to "union discussion should be censored".
- kqr 5y ago
  Censored is not technically the right word, though. You don't directly get thrown in jail for discussing union stuff.
  - jamincan 5y ago
    censorship ≠ incarceration
    - kqr 5y ago
      Well, almost. Censorship is generally backed by some sort of threat of violence. If I refuse to propagate speech I disagree with, it might be hypocritical of me, or just impolite, but it's not censorship.

stepbeek 5y ago

What kind of libertarianism? Afaik left-libertarianism is in favour of unions. If it's right-libertarianism you're referencing then can you share some of the "economics science" that promotes it?

perryizgr8 5y ago
"Left" libertarianism is an oxymoron. Any philosophy that prioritises the collective over the individual is inherently illiberal.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  The left vs right dichotomy doesn't have too much to do with collectivism vs individualism. For example, social conservatism is a right wing idea, but it is highly collectivistic (prioritizing social mores over individual freedom). Left libertarianism typically means free market economics + democratically organized and owned workplaces + social libertarianism (free love, free religion, free drugs etc). Right libertarianism is similar, but emphasizes contractualism instead of democratic control. Left libertarians typically scoff for example at corporations for their limitations on the personal freedoms of the workers, viewing it as a form of slavery.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  The very opposite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism "Libertarianism originated as a form of left-wing politics such as anti-authoritarian and anti-state socialists like anarchists,[6] especially social anarchists,[7] but more generally libertarian communists/Marxists and libertarian socialists"

attilaperez 5y ago

Economics is not a science, it's an art. Believe me.

wickedsickeune 5y ago
There is no need for "belief", it is literally not a science, it does not adhere to the scientific method.

tsimionescu 5y ago

Well, if your arguments are coming from "economics science", feel free to make them. It's usually very entertaining to see what crazy things economists convince themselves to believe, while also thinking they are doing science.

olalonde 5y ago
HN isn't the best place for that (see the many emotionally charged replies to my comment). I just wanted to point out that it was possible to be anti-union without being contrarian.

tikwidd 5y ago

You still have to get from "unions are bad" to "union discussion should be censored".

kqr 5y ago
Censored is not technically the right word, though. You don't directly get thrown in jail for discussing union stuff.
- jamincan 5y ago
  censorship ≠ incarceration
  - kqr 5y ago
    Well, almost. Censorship is generally backed by some sort of threat of violence. If I refuse to propagate speech I disagree with, it might be hypocritical of me, or just impolite, but it's not censorship.