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I’ve heard this argument before but it’s always felt like a non-sequitur. Why would it be pointless to reason out if free will exists? Case A: no free will rea

by alecst 5y ago

I’ve heard this argument before but it’s always felt like a non-sequitur. Why would it be pointless to reason out if free will exists? Case A: no free will really exists. We reason about whether free will exists. We conclude it does not. Case B: free will really exists. We reason about whether free will exist. We conclude it does. Do you think society A and society B march on exactly the same?

fargle 5y ago
> Why would it be pointless to reason out if free will exists? because everything is pointless then - it's already happened, it's known. done. You are a puppet on a string and have no free-will. As I said, to argue that free will does not exist is a pointless waste of time. Disingenuous. If you are right, then it's obviously true - but why argue because you know that you'll change nothing. The truth is the same a million years ago and a million years hence. So to argue the point implies you are just not honestly debating and not considering the merits and arguments or trying to convince. You must acede that you are not in a fair debate. If you are wrong, well, then I can accept that. You may be wrong and there could be change! To argue, even reason, is either (free-will) to effect change, or (no-free-will) a waste of time. The later of which is illogical and irrational - simply a belief and an action with nothing more. It's a tautological falsehood to debate or question free will. The mere action of debate and reason implies will. Again, this doesn't prove that free-will exists, but to me it proves illogical to argue against it.
- alan-hn 5y ago
  Why is everything pointless without free will?
  - fargle 5y ago
    EXACTLY! that's really the definition! But I do not need to win the point "pointless to do anything", sufficient is "pointless to debate". If it is predestined, then it is simply not really a debate.
    - alan-hn 5y ago
      I don't agree about debate. Debate is an important interaction between two humans in which a consensus is reached (generally) to guide a course of action. The debate is important for altering the likely course of action. If you decide that debate is unimportant, you don't get these I redactions and miss out on important I formation Such as we are doing here Debate is simply an exchange of information between two entities, its our perception of what debate is that's incorrect
  - coldtea 5y ago
    Because whatever you do, you'd have done anyway. Same for whatever you feel. If there's a deterministic universe, it includes your thoughts and feelings, not just "what happens" at large.
- mgh2 5y ago
  Because false beliefs can affect everything in society https://trendguardian.medium.com/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale-4fecf8095812 https://trendguardian.medium.com/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale...

by alecst 5y ago

fargle 5y ago

> Why would it be pointless to reason out if free will exists? because everything is pointless then - it's already happened, it's known. done. You are a puppet on a string and have no free-will. As I said, to argue that free will does not exist is a pointless waste of time. Disingenuous. If you are right, then it's obviously true - but why argue because you know that you'll change nothing. The truth is the same a million years ago and a million years hence. So to argue the point implies you are just not honestly debating and not considering the merits and arguments or trying to convince. You must acede that you are not in a fair debate. If you are wrong, well, then I can accept that. You may be wrong and there could be change! To argue, even reason, is either (free-will) to effect change, or (no-free-will) a waste of time. The later of which is illogical and irrational - simply a belief and an action with nothing more. It's a tautological falsehood to debate or question free will. The mere action of debate and reason implies will. Again, this doesn't prove that free-will exists, but to me it proves illogical to argue against it.

alan-hn 5y ago
Why is everything pointless without free will?
- fargle 5y ago
  EXACTLY! that's really the definition! But I do not need to win the point "pointless to do anything", sufficient is "pointless to debate". If it is predestined, then it is simply not really a debate.
  - alan-hn 5y ago
    I don't agree about debate. Debate is an important interaction between two humans in which a consensus is reached (generally) to guide a course of action. The debate is important for altering the likely course of action. If you decide that debate is unimportant, you don't get these I redactions and miss out on important I formation Such as we are doing here Debate is simply an exchange of information between two entities, its our perception of what debate is that's incorrect
- coldtea 5y ago
  Because whatever you do, you'd have done anyway. Same for whatever you feel. If there's a deterministic universe, it includes your thoughts and feelings, not just "what happens" at large.
mgh2 5y ago
Because false beliefs can affect everything in society https://trendguardian.medium.com/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale-4fecf8095812 https://trendguardian.medium.com/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale...