8 ms·

EVs are expensive right now and the prospective buyers are hardly concerned with saving a few cents per mile. What they are concerned with is slow recharging, b

by akomtu 5y ago

EVs are expensive right now and the prospective buyers are hardly concerned with saving a few cents per mile. What they are concerned with is slow recharging, battery degradation and the mandatory survelliance module in the car.

b112 5y ago
mandatory survelliance module in the car. This, and absurd touchscren interfaces. I like to adjust controls, without taking eyes off road, but hey, that's crazy talk I guess.
- vel0city 5y ago
  I agree, better to not take your eyes off the road, and better yet not take your hands off the wheel. Using auto climate controls makes it safer to drive instead of changing focus to adjust climate settings by hand. Its a good thing all those knobs and buttons were taken away to reduce the temptation to fiddle with them when driving instead of focusing on the wheel and the road.
  - somebehemoth 5y ago
    Buttons and knobs can be navigated by humans using muscle memory alone. This is a feature of humans that has minimal downside compared to forcing the focus of human visual systems to a use touch interface. It is a false dichotomy to assert “auto” anything requires a touch screen interface. We have the technology for both analog interfaces and “auto” climate control.
    - vel0city 5y ago
      I'll admit I'm being a bit obtuse, but overall if you're wanting to argue its a safety thing to have knobs then in reality its even more of a safety thing to encourage the auto controls over having a bunch of buttons and knobs to fiddle with and get distracted by. What's more distracting, taking your hands off the wheel and turning a knob or just having the auto climate control take care of it? To me, I'd rather not waste large swaths of the dashboard with buttons and knobs I'd never press compared to having it be actually useful like navigation information. Its easier to quickly glance at a map and get useful information from it when the information is bigger than when its smaller. Literally half of the buttons on the dashboard of one of my car never get pressed. Its wasted space. Meanwhile almost all of the screen on my big screen car gets used every time I drive.
      - somebehemoth 5y ago
        > Meanwhile almost all of the screen on my big screen car gets used every time I drive. Which means your eyes were not on the road every single time you used this interface. Even if you had “wasted space” in your previous analog UI, none of that wasted space took your eyes off the road. The same cannot be said for the vast majority of touch screen user interface interaction. Analog controls are superior for car user interfaces. Touch screens have a use case, but rarely in moving vehicles. I’m not being obtuse. There is no argument that favors touch screen interfaces where human attention is the difference between life and death. Smart cars can have analog inputs. There is no need to choose between one or the other.
        vel0city 5y ago
        Please tell me how I'd use a map as an analog control navigated by my hands. I'm supposed to feel the dashboard for the directions, feel around for the layout of the exit bridges I'm approaching? Read the names of the road in braille? As a driver, my hands practically never leave the steering wheel. Media controls happen by the buttons on the steering wheel or voice commands. Climate is automatic. Heated seats are automatic. Heated steering wheel is automatic. The large screen makes it easier to see the directions and layout of the roads I'm approaching. Meanwhile, when I'm not driving my car, the larger screen makes it easier to update the navigation. It makes it easier to plan out the route. It makes it easier for making any fine tuning to the literally hundreds of different settings on my car, settings I really don't need a dedicated button taking up space the 99.9% of the time I'm not pressing the button. Note I'm not a Tesla fanboy, I do think some physical controls are good. Having useful stalks is nice, being able to control things like wipers is still useful as they're not quite 100% yet. However, a thermostat is a solved problem. As a driver, never having to take my hands off the wheel is preferred to physical knobs. And if I never have to take my hands off the wheel, what does it matter if the other controls are physical or not?
        smaudet 5y ago
        "However, a thermostat is a solved problem." Sure, maybe in a stationary room, and I can think of plenty of times when I have used my heating or cooling system as not a thermostat. Not a sovled problem in cars... I can also think of several scenarios where touch controls are absolutely inadequate, i.e. they simply don't work, the knobs in my car are simple to manipulate, and I do so regularly. Now, do I need 6 buttons to operate all the nonsense in my dash, no - ironically the only "wasted" buttons in my car are the ones related to all the digital touchscreen software I never use... Regarding the GPS - if my phone or dash unit isn't going to read me the right directions, the map unit is useless anyways. The complex stuff I might like the screen for, I need to be paying attention to the road for anyways. That's precisely the wrong time to be learning what the virtual road looks like and ignoring the semi barelling past me on my left as I have three lane changes to make. I guess an argument could be madr for prepping me visually a couple minutes ahead, but auditory feedback is enough. And I don't even need the car for that - I'm usually wearing a headset anyways, just makes for a more seamless auditory experience, I can answer calls, etc. There is really just no reason I want a large visual map display distracting me while I'm driving.
epistasis 5y ago
$0.10/mile is $1k-$2k/year. I agree that car consumers are in general very irrational (in the economic sense), and car purchases are often far more about projecting an image than they are about practicality. But that also means that consumers don't give a damn about slow recharging or battery degradation. It's mostly what will other people think about me for driving this vehicle. Thus the big pickups whose truck beds never see any duty.
- akomtu 5y ago
  Someone who's concerned with $2k/year would buy a used honda for under $10k.
  - d3ad1ysp0rk 5y ago
    $2k is $10k at a 5 year loan (+ ongoing!), so a considerable part of the economic equation for most car buyers (avg US car purchase is $47k).
    - vel0city 5y ago
      Interest rates on cars can be stupid cheap. $2k on the loan on my car works out to $2,046 after 5 years at the 0.9% rate.
      - epistasis 5y ago
        That's $2k/year, which works out to $10,230 on a five year loan. Plus the $2k/year savings every year after that when the car is still in service. It's a classic stock versus flow problem in economics. People irrationally over-weight the pain of a big lump sum, and under rate the pain of ongoing monthly payments. They misevaluate even as they convert a stock into a flow with an auto loan. Similarly, people underestimate the cost of driving everywhere, when they have already sunk so much into the units investment. I swear that there's something about cars that turns people's brains off. They are so deeply ingrained into our way of life that we basically refuse to consider costs and alternatives.
    - 5y ago
vel0city 5y ago
A few cents per mile add up when you hope to get 100,000 miles+ out of your vehicle. $0.10 * 100,000 = $10,000. And that's just fuel costs. The expected maintenance cost of my ICE is then another thousand or so more than the expected maintenance of my EV. Oil changes alone for synthetic oil at a 7,500mi interval for 100,000 is over $900. Add coolant flushes to that, timing chain tune up, probably a water pump replacement in there, and you're well over another $1,000 more than the EV which doesn't have a planned oil change or coolant flush until 150,000mi.
- falcolas 5y ago
  > $10,000 + $900 + $1000 Which is still less than the EV premium right now. A model 3 at ~$45,000 (low end for 2022 model) vs. a civic at ~$30,000 (high end 2022 model). Even the Nissan leaf is ~$27,000 on the low end, for a vehicle which is incomparable to a Civic.
  - vel0city 5y ago
    There are more EVs than just Tesla and Nissan out there. Base model Mach E is ~$44k. Minus the $7,500 federal tax credit, $36,500. Minus the $11,900 potential lifetime savings brings us to $24,600. Kia EV6 base is $40,900. Minus federal tax credit, $33,400. Minus the $11,900, $21,500. VW ID.4 base is $41,230. Minus federal tax credit, $33,730. Minus the $11,900, $21,830. 21,500 < 21,830 < 24,600 < 30,000.

by akomtu 5y ago

b112 5y ago

mandatory survelliance module in the car. This, and absurd touchscren interfaces. I like to adjust controls, without taking eyes off road, but hey, that's crazy talk I guess.

vel0city 5y ago
I agree, better to not take your eyes off the road, and better yet not take your hands off the wheel. Using auto climate controls makes it safer to drive instead of changing focus to adjust climate settings by hand. Its a good thing all those knobs and buttons were taken away to reduce the temptation to fiddle with them when driving instead of focusing on the wheel and the road.
- somebehemoth 5y ago
  Buttons and knobs can be navigated by humans using muscle memory alone. This is a feature of humans that has minimal downside compared to forcing the focus of human visual systems to a use touch interface. It is a false dichotomy to assert “auto” anything requires a touch screen interface. We have the technology for both analog interfaces and “auto” climate control.
  - vel0city 5y ago
    I'll admit I'm being a bit obtuse, but overall if you're wanting to argue its a safety thing to have knobs then in reality its even more of a safety thing to encourage the auto controls over having a bunch of buttons and knobs to fiddle with and get distracted by. What's more distracting, taking your hands off the wheel and turning a knob or just having the auto climate control take care of it? To me, I'd rather not waste large swaths of the dashboard with buttons and knobs I'd never press compared to having it be actually useful like navigation information. Its easier to quickly glance at a map and get useful information from it when the information is bigger than when its smaller. Literally half of the buttons on the dashboard of one of my car never get pressed. Its wasted space. Meanwhile almost all of the screen on my big screen car gets used every time I drive.
    - somebehemoth 5y ago
      > Meanwhile almost all of the screen on my big screen car gets used every time I drive. Which means your eyes were not on the road every single time you used this interface. Even if you had “wasted space” in your previous analog UI, none of that wasted space took your eyes off the road. The same cannot be said for the vast majority of touch screen user interface interaction. Analog controls are superior for car user interfaces. Touch screens have a use case, but rarely in moving vehicles. I’m not being obtuse. There is no argument that favors touch screen interfaces where human attention is the difference between life and death. Smart cars can have analog inputs. There is no need to choose between one or the other.
      - vel0city 5y ago
        Please tell me how I'd use a map as an analog control navigated by my hands. I'm supposed to feel the dashboard for the directions, feel around for the layout of the exit bridges I'm approaching? Read the names of the road in braille? As a driver, my hands practically never leave the steering wheel. Media controls happen by the buttons on the steering wheel or voice commands. Climate is automatic. Heated seats are automatic. Heated steering wheel is automatic. The large screen makes it easier to see the directions and layout of the roads I'm approaching. Meanwhile, when I'm not driving my car, the larger screen makes it easier to update the navigation. It makes it easier to plan out the route. It makes it easier for making any fine tuning to the literally hundreds of different settings on my car, settings I really don't need a dedicated button taking up space the 99.9% of the time I'm not pressing the button. Note I'm not a Tesla fanboy, I do think some physical controls are good. Having useful stalks is nice, being able to control things like wipers is still useful as they're not quite 100% yet. However, a thermostat is a solved problem. As a driver, never having to take my hands off the wheel is preferred to physical knobs. And if I never have to take my hands off the wheel, what does it matter if the other controls are physical or not?
        smaudet 5y ago
        "However, a thermostat is a solved problem." Sure, maybe in a stationary room, and I can think of plenty of times when I have used my heating or cooling system as not a thermostat. Not a sovled problem in cars... I can also think of several scenarios where touch controls are absolutely inadequate, i.e. they simply don't work, the knobs in my car are simple to manipulate, and I do so regularly. Now, do I need 6 buttons to operate all the nonsense in my dash, no - ironically the only "wasted" buttons in my car are the ones related to all the digital touchscreen software I never use... Regarding the GPS - if my phone or dash unit isn't going to read me the right directions, the map unit is useless anyways. The complex stuff I might like the screen for, I need to be paying attention to the road for anyways. That's precisely the wrong time to be learning what the virtual road looks like and ignoring the semi barelling past me on my left as I have three lane changes to make. I guess an argument could be madr for prepping me visually a couple minutes ahead, but auditory feedback is enough. And I don't even need the car for that - I'm usually wearing a headset anyways, just makes for a more seamless auditory experience, I can answer calls, etc. There is really just no reason I want a large visual map display distracting me while I'm driving.

epistasis 5y ago

$0.10/mile is $1k-$2k/year. I agree that car consumers are in general very irrational (in the economic sense), and car purchases are often far more about projecting an image than they are about practicality. But that also means that consumers don't give a damn about slow recharging or battery degradation. It's mostly what will other people think about me for driving this vehicle. Thus the big pickups whose truck beds never see any duty.

akomtu 5y ago
Someone who's concerned with $2k/year would buy a used honda for under $10k.
- d3ad1ysp0rk 5y ago
  $2k is $10k at a 5 year loan (+ ongoing!), so a considerable part of the economic equation for most car buyers (avg US car purchase is $47k).
  - vel0city 5y ago
    Interest rates on cars can be stupid cheap. $2k on the loan on my car works out to $2,046 after 5 years at the 0.9% rate.
    - epistasis 5y ago
      That's $2k/year, which works out to $10,230 on a five year loan. Plus the $2k/year savings every year after that when the car is still in service. It's a classic stock versus flow problem in economics. People irrationally over-weight the pain of a big lump sum, and under rate the pain of ongoing monthly payments. They misevaluate even as they convert a stock into a flow with an auto loan. Similarly, people underestimate the cost of driving everywhere, when they have already sunk so much into the units investment. I swear that there's something about cars that turns people's brains off. They are so deeply ingrained into our way of life that we basically refuse to consider costs and alternatives.
  - 5y ago

vel0city 5y ago

A few cents per mile add up when you hope to get 100,000 miles+ out of your vehicle. $0.10 * 100,000 = $10,000. And that's just fuel costs. The expected maintenance cost of my ICE is then another thousand or so more than the expected maintenance of my EV. Oil changes alone for synthetic oil at a 7,500mi interval for 100,000 is over $900. Add coolant flushes to that, timing chain tune up, probably a water pump replacement in there, and you're well over another $1,000 more than the EV which doesn't have a planned oil change or coolant flush until 150,000mi.

falcolas 5y ago
> $10,000 + $900 + $1000 Which is still less than the EV premium right now. A model 3 at ~$45,000 (low end for 2022 model) vs. a civic at ~$30,000 (high end 2022 model). Even the Nissan leaf is ~$27,000 on the low end, for a vehicle which is incomparable to a Civic.
- vel0city 5y ago
  There are more EVs than just Tesla and Nissan out there. Base model Mach E is ~$44k. Minus the $7,500 federal tax credit, $36,500. Minus the $11,900 potential lifetime savings brings us to $24,600. Kia EV6 base is $40,900. Minus federal tax credit, $33,400. Minus the $11,900, $21,500. VW ID.4 base is $41,230. Minus federal tax credit, $33,730. Minus the $11,900, $21,830. 21,500 < 21,830 < 24,600 < 30,000.