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I dismissed the importance of copywriters for important one-word labels until Mastodon deemed their posts "toots." Adoption is critical for social media, and c
by chefandy 5y ago
I dismissed the importance of copywriters for important one-word labels until Mastodon deemed their posts "toots."
Adoption is critical for social media, and cachet is critical for mass adoption. "Tooting" isn't the radio-friendly Big Bang Theory flavor of dorky— it's Segway-with-knee-pads dorky. I'll probably deploy an instance for kicks and giggles, but I can't see it taking off until it's a little more image savvy.
Dorkiness can be an insurmountable obstacle. Just ask google glass.
- RhysU 5y ago> 54-46 was my number. Right now, someone else has that number. Dorkiness does not legitimately enter into discussing "Toots" no matter Mastodon's intent.
- chefandy 5y agoI hate to say it, but we're 2 years closer to the spirit of 2069.
- krapp 5y agoGoogle Glass didn't fail because it was dorky, it failed because people understand Google to be a surveillance and advertising company and the prospect of Glass serving as an always on, always streaming, always interpreting Panopticon was too much for people to take. You're right about "toots," though. At least "tweets" make sense for a site named Twitter, but what is a "toot," a mastodon farting?
- brimble 5y agoAs in "to toot a horn". Like a trunk. Of an elephant. Or a mastodon.
- SkyMarshal 5y agoKrapp is right though, "tooting" is also slang in some places for farting. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hZUvuvfDQg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hZUvuvfDQg It's also old slang for a drinking bender: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/on+a+toot https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/on+a+toot Mastadon really should have done a little more due dilligence before deciding on that term.
- chefandy 5y agoIndeed. When you're talking about image, "hey guys it doesn't necessarily mean elephant farts" doesn't work. Even ignoring that, the word "tweet" viscerally feels light, nimble, quick, and sharp. Toot feels heavier, duller, and more imposing. To end users, the interface is the software and no amount of technical or logistical impressiveness will overcome something being viscerally off-putting. It needs to become attractive in spite of that.
- rapnie 5y ago> Even ignoring that, the word "tweet" viscerally feels light, nimble, quick, and sharp. It did, until Twitter spoiled that. Hearing 'tweet' I somehow get associations with 'trump' (also slang for fart in British English, btw) and 'musk' (a strong odor).
- chefandy 5y agoSure— nothing that visible will stay untarnished forever. Not to everybody, anyway. Starting out pre-tarnished makes it a lot harder to get enough adoption for a brand to withstand that, especially for an image-focused product. Facebook only had the opportunity to become a sad hot mess because they affected preppy ivy league exclusivity instead of launching as "OpenPorpoisePost.org" or some other FOSSy name. We'd never have heard of H&M had they been named "Tootin' Duds".
- brimble 5y agoYeah, I know. But I'm pretty sure if Twitter'd gone this way and here we had the open-source clone using the name "twitter", we'd all be writing about how hopeless their branding is because it's very easy to make "twit" jokes about it. [EDIT] nb I don't use Mastodon and don't expect it to take off, but I don't think "toot" is at all the reason for that.
- chefandy 5y agoI don't think anybody implied it was the sole reason.
- michaelsbradley 5y agoLong live tooting! _.-- ,.--. .' .' / | @ |'..--------._ / \._/ '. / .-.- \ ( / \ \ \\ '. | # \\ \ -. / :\ | )._____.' \ " | / \ | \ ) snd | |./' :__ \.-' '--' I'm not sure who "snd" is, but they drew a nice tooter :) (hopefully anticipating a "trunk raised, toot blasting" ascii art response worthy of the thread)
- Nextgrid 5y ago> a mastodon farting While that's not the true meaning behind it, "a mastodon farting" is a good summary for the branding around all these "fediverse" social networks.
- chrisin2d 5y agoIf concerns about privacy were widespread enough to stop Google Glass, then surely they would have prevented the mass adoption of always listening, always streaming voice assistant devices. I think that privacy should be a greater public concern, but I doubt it was the reason why Google Glass failed to catch on.
- krapp 5y ago>then surely they would have prevented the mass adoption of always listening, always streaming voice assistant devices There's something viscerally more creepy about having a camera pointed directly in your face at all times. Try holding your cellphone up to random people at about eye level, you'll see that people do in fact find that at least annoying. >I think that privacy should be a greater public concern, but I doubt it was the reason why Google Glass failed to catch on. As I recall, it was the only thing people were talking about.
- kemayo 5y agoThere's a distinction, though, which I think would matter to people. Smart assistants are things you choose for yourself -- they don't get put in your home without your involvement. Google Glass was something someone else chose for you. (Also it was very expensive, clunky looking, and buggy. As you say, it's multifaceted.)
- chefandy 5y agoPeople understand that? that must be why people also avoid Gmail, Google Drive, Chrome, Android, Google Search...
- function_seven 5y agoIt's one thing to use these tools yourself. It's quite another to walk around in public pointing a camera at everyone you look at, all the time. You're technically correct. Using Gmail, Drive, Chrome, etc., does place a small burden on those you interact with (when they email you, when you store group project files, etc.) But there's a whole other level of intrusiveness when you're roaming meatspace with a Google Camera in everyone's face. Oh, and it's dorky as hell. Glass failed on multiple fronts. For the reasons you listed as well as the parent comment.
- fomine3 5y agoSo do average people avoid Facebook?
- riffic 5y agothe project doesn't use 'toot' anymore and this is like the most trivial concern to have with a piece of software.
- ashtonkem 5y agoWording and branding is not a trivial concern if mass adoption is a goal.
- riffic 5y agoI don't think it's a goal (it's not mine as a user), but I'm sure you can ask Mastodon gGmbH for their OKRs when it's funding time.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- Tao331 5y agoWhen has mass adoption of a social networking platform ever worked out well for users?
- chefandy 5y agoWhen has lacking it worked out well for social networks?
- Nextgrid 5y agoFrankly, even besides "toot", Mastodon isn't a particularly appealing name either.
- riffic 5y agoWhy is it, without fail, there's always someone in an HN thread making complaints about the name of something they have absolutely no involvement in? I come here just for the bikeshedding to be honest.
- wallfacer120 5y agoYeah they should have picked a cool word like "tweet."
- chefandy 5y agoIn an alternate Twitter-free universe if someone wanted a noun/verb for a deliberately lightweight communication broadcast into the ether over the internet, I'd bank a grand on marketers agreeing that a cheerful, sharp little chirp from a nimble, energetic bird communicates that better than the plaintive sounding crescendo of a giant plodding extinct earthbound mammal which also is outdated slang for a fart. Mastodons are cool and everything but they don't work for branding a social network. Some rad groundbreaking online museum or library or something else that wanted to viscerally communicate age and wisdom and weight and timelessness? Sure.
- wallfacer120 5y agoI think the negative reaction to the word toot has little to do with the relative uncoolness of the mastadon, I think the issue is that toot has a scatological association.
- chefandy 5y agoNot what I’m saying. Toot’s self-evident, multifaceted dorkiness is the most concrete reason people find mastodon uncool. I wouldn’t trust a designer’s cobbled together code for a production project; likewise, developers should delegate these things to domain specialists when image is important. These commenters, largely developers, confidently discounting the importance of visceral appeal in social environments is yet more evidence. I get that many developers had/have a toxic experience with the concept of coolness, but that doesn’t negate its functionality in this vein.
- aendruk 5y agoiirc “tweet” originated among users and was later adopted officially, so by analogy perhaps Mastodon’s mistake is to have unilaterally chosen a term from the outset.
- Tao331 5y agoNote to self: mastodon comes with "people who passionately dislike use of the word toot" already filtered out.
- chefandy 5y ago* also people who didn’t find it appealing enough to notice. (Seemingly most, looking at the numbers.) When developers assume qualified UI designers merely wield arbitrary personal preferences, FOSS loses. - it buttresses a disdain and devaluation of the design discipline, in general - developers feel entitled to obnoxiously impose their actual arbitrary personal preferences and folk knowledge on the fruit of someone’s intellectual discipline. It’s rarely an improvement. - designers give up on a FOSS projects in general - Your see conjecture and debate. Anyone who knows what they’re talking about sees Dunning and Kruger.
- EtherTyper 5y agoAs a consumer facing brand, this may be a problem. But as a technology for building custom social media services, I don't think this will harm its adoption at all. I know of two examples already of people modifying Mastodon to build rebranded "alternate" social media networks (Gab and Truth Social,) neither of which still refer to posts as toots to my knowledge.
- chefandy 5y agoSilver linings don’t negate clouds. Feedback doesn’t negate accomplishment.
- upsidesinclude 5y agoExcept this perfectly encapsulated the culture that wanted to abandon Twitter and recognized that it all amounted to shit. It isn't birdsong, it's a fart
- chefandy 5y agoMaybe they should seal the deal by doing a s/user/loser in their codebase and really watch the signups roll in!
- rapnie 5y ago> Adoption .. critical .. mass adoption .. see it taking off That's all nice for when on a startup, scaleup, unicorn, megasaurus adventure, but not what this is really about. At least not yet, and I hope it stays that way. This is about free software projects in a hard-to-monetize decentralized (federated) environment, where a different culture currently thrives. One where all these incentives that made other social media such bad places, are not very prevalent yet (and to some extent can be controlled by moderation mechanisms). The "move fast and break things" growth hacking mindset, if that wins out, will likely destroy this culture. 'Hard-to-monetize' is an advantage in my book, in this regard.
- chefandy 5y ago> where a different culture currently thrives I agree. It is an issue of cultural acceptance. And rest assured, you don't need to educate me about FOSS scene culture— I've been using linux consistently since the 90s and have worked full time developing for FOSS projects for 12 years. The important realization you skipped past was the exclusivity of culture. Just like Punk cultures, FOSS culture often mistakes itself for an inclusive catch-all for people opposed to a corporate for-profit status quo. Though obviously opposed to corporate status quo, the FOSS scene is an in-club of people who put technical accomplishment above all else. They pride themselves on rejecting user-focus and pushing through awful user experiences. There are cool kids and villains and the look and feel of your projects is the same as subculture fashion. I can't imagine Mastodon intended to restrict their audience to that 'different culture' but ignoring their perspective certainly had that effect. Eschewing or appealing to people outside of that culture has absolutely nothing to do with profit. None.