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fine, let me rephrase that. There's an aggressive societal push towards taking an apathetic stance towards the mental health among boys. White boys from poorer

fine, let me rephrase that. There's an aggressive societal push towards taking an apathetic stance towards the mental health among boys. White boys from poorer communities seem the most egregiously affected by this but they are hardly the only ones. Certain groups who feel that there is a zero sum game when it comes to empathy seem especially threatened by the notion that we pay any attention to this issue and aggressivly push back against any attempts to talk about it out of some sense of moral superiority. when I saw those idiots with the tikki torches, what I saw was insecurity by people withheld from any sense of meaningful identity. So much so that they revert to the ridiculous notion of being proud of their skin color because they have little else to go on. This root of the issue hasn't been addressed at all and by continuing to shame boys for being boys and creating an outlet for positive masculinity, we are leading society towards a very dark path. happy?

happytoexplain 5y ago
I can't picture the specific phenomenon you're referring to, even abstractly, when you say things like "an aggressive societal push towards taking an apathetic stance towards the mental health among boys" and "Certain groups ... seem especially threatened by the notion that we pay any attention to this issue and aggressivly push back", and use the tiki-torch demonstrators as an example. It sounds like you're talking about the unrest and hate surrounding social politics, but are inserting male children who kill themselves in the place where the alt-right (or related terms) would normally appear. The sarcastic "happy?" is maybe an indicator that this is not laid out in exactly the least emotional way, which is maybe part of the problem of clarity - do you have anything more specific in mind when you refer to this seemingly crazy movement against the very idea of helping suicidal young boys? That's a very broad, seemingly non-political thing to be "against".
- cultofmetatron 5y ago
  > The sarcastic "happy?" is maybe an indicator that this is not laid out in exactly the least emotional way, which is maybe part of the problem of clarity You're right. having grown up in massachusetts, and having spent a good amount of time in califonia, I've grown a somewhat kneejerk reaction to liberal hypocracy. Don't get my wrong, I have no love for republican policies but Ive also developed a strong distaste for how certain liberal ideologies even with reasonably sound ideas at their core, percolate to the more fringe leaves of the masses. case in point, the notion of white privilege. Root idea: historical exploitation (to put it mildly) has created a system of inequality that exists to this day and largely privileges certain groups of people while disadvantaging others. We need to understand where we are in that place so that we can take steps to dismantle those institutions and create more equitable opportunities for people. What well meaning idiots end up spouting at the edge (and yes I've heard such things come out of white people's mouths): white people are all racist and toxic and should be sorry for existing. And a more direct comparison, take the notion of toxic masculinity: root idea: Societal expectations of boys are rooted in an imperative for boys to be behave in ways that are maladaptive. certain traits we define as masculine such as aggression, can result in behaviors that are deplorable. Its imperative for a healthy society to create a definition of masculinity thats rooted healthy positive behaviors and to accept traits that we associate with femininity as well in order for an individual to be emotionally "whole." Part of this means redefining roles for men taht embrace the good qualities of masculinity (healthy competitiveness, jovial pride, brotherhood and a modicum of stoicism) while avoiding the negative traits, (entitlement, tribalism, blaming others for ones failiures) * What well meaning zealots end up spouting at the edge "kill all men." "toxic masculinity bad mmkay" "I drink male tears" Now to answer your question about why I bring up far right to a story about suicide. Its all connected. People express mental anguish differently. Some of the kids going though difficulty right now will get through it and find their way to a healthy adulthood. Some people, seeking an outlet to justify their feelings will join groups promoting maladaptive behavior in a desperate bid to feel part of an in group. This is where I make the connection to the tiki torch groups. Others sadly take the quick path out the metaphorical door. Now you might ask, Why do I care so much about what fanatics at the edge think? Its because they are the straw man talking heads like tucker carlson push when trying to make their own regressive agenda seem like the sane choice. Its ultimately counterproductive towards the very ideals we should be working towards as a society. anyways, props to you if you get this far down. Hope it clarifies my point
  - happytoexplain 5y ago
    I see - I did figure you were implying some version of the sentiment that the backlash to the sins of our culture can make white people feel attacked for being white, and young people are especially susceptible to such identity-related negativity that arises from social politics bullshit. It was just hard to form a thought about it without details. Without getting into specifics, I certainly agree that it's a big and real problem. I know how you feel, if not specifically, than at least qualitatively. It makes my blood boil that some people try to erode sympathy for others based on their membership in some broad category, and anti-white and anti-male rhetoric are absolutely a significant part of that genre at present. I think you are making some common missteps though. What I'm about to say sounds like whataboutism, but it's complementary: I have heard the words "I can't wait to kill liberals" (in reference to hypothetical civil violence after Jan 6th) come out of conservatives' mouths (for lack of a more specific word than "conservative"). This attitude is more commonly expressed not as an explicit desire for violence, but as simple hatred (and, relevantly, a mockery of suicide in specific), and, again sticking to personal experience only, has contributed to fear and depression in a couple young people I know. I try not to hold that against conservative ideology. More specifically, what I try not to do is make ominous, sarcastic, or broadly negative implications, nor lament the inconsistency of conservatives as a monolithic group as "conservative hypocrisy". I know, analogies are bad - I am not saying that the problem you're describing is just a liberals vs conservatives thing, nor that there is an equivalent problem with the roles altered or reversed, nor that, even if there were, that we should always bring up one when talking about the other. What I am saying is that it's very tempting to look at extremely broad, immoral generalizations being made by somebody, and use them as an excuse to make our own opposite, lesser generalizations: "nobody gives a shit about young boys", "aggressive societal push ...", "there is a war on white people" (the last one not from you, obviously, but a related example).
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happytoexplain 5y ago

I can't picture the specific phenomenon you're referring to, even abstractly, when you say things like "an aggressive societal push towards taking an apathetic stance towards the mental health among boys" and "Certain groups ... seem especially threatened by the notion that we pay any attention to this issue and aggressivly push back", and use the tiki-torch demonstrators as an example. It sounds like you're talking about the unrest and hate surrounding social politics, but are inserting male children who kill themselves in the place where the alt-right (or related terms) would normally appear. The sarcastic "happy?" is maybe an indicator that this is not laid out in exactly the least emotional way, which is maybe part of the problem of clarity - do you have anything more specific in mind when you refer to this seemingly crazy movement against the very idea of helping suicidal young boys? That's a very broad, seemingly non-political thing to be "against".

cultofmetatron 5y ago
> The sarcastic "happy?" is maybe an indicator that this is not laid out in exactly the least emotional way, which is maybe part of the problem of clarity You're right. having grown up in massachusetts, and having spent a good amount of time in califonia, I've grown a somewhat kneejerk reaction to liberal hypocracy. Don't get my wrong, I have no love for republican policies but Ive also developed a strong distaste for how certain liberal ideologies even with reasonably sound ideas at their core, percolate to the more fringe leaves of the masses. case in point, the notion of white privilege. Root idea: historical exploitation (to put it mildly) has created a system of inequality that exists to this day and largely privileges certain groups of people while disadvantaging others. We need to understand where we are in that place so that we can take steps to dismantle those institutions and create more equitable opportunities for people. What well meaning idiots end up spouting at the edge (and yes I've heard such things come out of white people's mouths): white people are all racist and toxic and should be sorry for existing. And a more direct comparison, take the notion of toxic masculinity: root idea: Societal expectations of boys are rooted in an imperative for boys to be behave in ways that are maladaptive. certain traits we define as masculine such as aggression, can result in behaviors that are deplorable. Its imperative for a healthy society to create a definition of masculinity thats rooted healthy positive behaviors and to accept traits that we associate with femininity as well in order for an individual to be emotionally "whole." Part of this means redefining roles for men taht embrace the good qualities of masculinity (healthy competitiveness, jovial pride, brotherhood and a modicum of stoicism) while avoiding the negative traits, (entitlement, tribalism, blaming others for ones failiures) * What well meaning zealots end up spouting at the edge "kill all men." "toxic masculinity bad mmkay" "I drink male tears" Now to answer your question about why I bring up far right to a story about suicide. Its all connected. People express mental anguish differently. Some of the kids going though difficulty right now will get through it and find their way to a healthy adulthood. Some people, seeking an outlet to justify their feelings will join groups promoting maladaptive behavior in a desperate bid to feel part of an in group. This is where I make the connection to the tiki torch groups. Others sadly take the quick path out the metaphorical door. Now you might ask, Why do I care so much about what fanatics at the edge think? Its because they are the straw man talking heads like tucker carlson push when trying to make their own regressive agenda seem like the sane choice. Its ultimately counterproductive towards the very ideals we should be working towards as a society. anyways, props to you if you get this far down. Hope it clarifies my point
- happytoexplain 5y ago
  I see - I did figure you were implying some version of the sentiment that the backlash to the sins of our culture can make white people feel attacked for being white, and young people are especially susceptible to such identity-related negativity that arises from social politics bullshit. It was just hard to form a thought about it without details. Without getting into specifics, I certainly agree that it's a big and real problem. I know how you feel, if not specifically, than at least qualitatively. It makes my blood boil that some people try to erode sympathy for others based on their membership in some broad category, and anti-white and anti-male rhetoric are absolutely a significant part of that genre at present. I think you are making some common missteps though. What I'm about to say sounds like whataboutism, but it's complementary: I have heard the words "I can't wait to kill liberals" (in reference to hypothetical civil violence after Jan 6th) come out of conservatives' mouths (for lack of a more specific word than "conservative"). This attitude is more commonly expressed not as an explicit desire for violence, but as simple hatred (and, relevantly, a mockery of suicide in specific), and, again sticking to personal experience only, has contributed to fear and depression in a couple young people I know. I try not to hold that against conservative ideology. More specifically, what I try not to do is make ominous, sarcastic, or broadly negative implications, nor lament the inconsistency of conservatives as a monolithic group as "conservative hypocrisy". I know, analogies are bad - I am not saying that the problem you're describing is just a liberals vs conservatives thing, nor that there is an equivalent problem with the roles altered or reversed, nor that, even if there were, that we should always bring up one when talking about the other. What I am saying is that it's very tempting to look at extremely broad, immoral generalizations being made by somebody, and use them as an excuse to make our own opposite, lesser generalizations: "nobody gives a shit about young boys", "aggressive societal push ...", "there is a war on white people" (the last one not from you, obviously, but a related example).

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