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The abstract you linked to says "female youth more often attempt suicide," which might indicate that girls are more troubled growing up.

by saila 5y ago

scarmig 5y ago
It's also odd that somehow the fact that boys commit suicide at four times the rate of girls can be used as a soapbox to try to prove that girls are more troubled growing up. But the point here is that the article omits this critical fact, even though being male identified is overwhelmingly the strongest demographic factor indicating risk of suicide. Doesn't that warrant at least a sentence?
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  Girls attempt it more, boys succeed more. It's not entirely unreasonable to suggest that "more attempts overall" = "more troubled" Maybe boys are overall less troubled than girls but just choose more effective forms of suicide. Maybe boys choose more effective forms of suicide because they are in fact way more troubled. Really though, it's not a competition. We should be able to help both boys and girls, in ways that are effective for each group.
  - scarmig 5y ago
    Girls are reported as attempting suicide more. But from the very article we're talking about, boys are repeatedly ignored when they give indications of suicide. And even to the extent that girls do attempt suicide more often, it's relevant that they use it as a cry for help and are more likely to receive that help (still not likely enough to receive it), while boys' intentions in committing suicide are more focused on actually completing it. I agree it's not a competition. But pointing out demographic trends and that some groups are more likely to commit suicide doesn't mean that you think other groups don't deserve attention and support. It's unclear why you're telling me it's not a competition for pointing out exactly that; the article does the exact same thing (except with LGBT youth and nonwhite youth), but it'd be silly for someone to come in and say that the author is trying to turn it into a competition. It's especially galling that you're accusing me of trying to turn it into a competition when the comment I was replying to (and you yourself!) jumped in entirely out of the blue to argue that girls have it worse, while I made no statement that boys have it worse.
    - bluefirebrand 5y ago
      > It's especially galling that you're accusing me of trying to turn it into a competition when the comment I was replying to jumped in entirely out of the blue to argue that girls have it worse Why would you assume my words were "accusing" you of anything, rather than just a general observation as part of a conversation that people are having? Presumably the OP you were responding to would potentially also read my reply to you and also see what I am saying. Or maybe I was just trying to head off people replying to my own post accusing me of making it into a competition, by making it clear that I have already considered that and agree with it, but still felt the rest of my post was a contribution to the discussion.
  - garbagetime 5y ago
    Suicide is really easy if you actually want to die. I assume "attempted suicide" is most often closer to a cry for help than a genuine attempt to end one's life.
    - Overtonwindow 5y ago
      Helium tank and a plastic bag is the easiest according to Final Exit.
      - garbagetime 5y ago
        I'm not sure about that. Maybe it's the best solution to the problem of finding an easy way to commit suicide relatively painlessly. If you don't mind experiencing extreme discomfort, there are easier ways to commit suicide. I.e. ways that require less effort.
        Handytinge 4y ago
        I can't imagine the amount of effort is relevant if it's your final act. What would you be saving your energy for?
    - saila 5y ago
      I'm not sure about with children, but with adults men are more likely to use a gun, at least in the U.S. I think partly that's due to access, but it may also point to some other gender difference.
      - scarmig 5y ago
        Even in places with strictly limited access to guns (e.g. the U.K., Japan), you see the same pattern of men committing suicide at a higher rate than women. The hypothesis I find most compelling is that the intentions behind suicides are different between the sexes, though it's also likely that women are generally more hesitant to use methods that disfigure the body (and are more effective) than are men, even when intention is controlled for.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    You see this in adults because men choose more effective methods of suicide like guns.
    - jeffbee 5y ago
      According to CDC this is also true for youth. Males use firearms 53% of the time, females only 19%.
      - Jensson 5y ago
        Men are more likely to succeed with suicide regardless of the method. Men who overdose on medicine takes much higher dosages and therefore succeeds more often etc. The reason women don't succeed is because they aren't as serious and therefore chooses dosages or methods where you are very unlikely to die, as can be seen in this study for example: https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-017-1398-8 https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12...
- saila 5y ago
  Some commenters in this thread seem to think that boys aren't as valued as girls, and I haven't seen any evidence for that. In fact, in many ways, the opposite seems true. The statistics regarding suicide don't prove that boys are less valued than girls. That's my only point here.
thr0wawayf00 5y ago
The abstract also makes the distinction that boys are much more successful in actually committing suicide than girls, so I don't see how this proves that girls are more troubled.

The abstract you linked to says "female youth more often attempt suicide," which might indicate that girls are more troubled growing up.

by saila 5y ago

The abstract you linked to says "female youth more often attempt suicide," which might indicate that girls are more troubled growing up.

scarmig 5y ago

It's also odd that somehow the fact that boys commit suicide at four times the rate of girls can be used as a soapbox to try to prove that girls are more troubled growing up. But the point here is that the article omits this critical fact, even though being male identified is overwhelmingly the strongest demographic factor indicating risk of suicide. Doesn't that warrant at least a sentence?

bluefirebrand 5y ago
Girls attempt it more, boys succeed more. It's not entirely unreasonable to suggest that "more attempts overall" = "more troubled" Maybe boys are overall less troubled than girls but just choose more effective forms of suicide. Maybe boys choose more effective forms of suicide because they are in fact way more troubled. Really though, it's not a competition. We should be able to help both boys and girls, in ways that are effective for each group.
- scarmig 5y ago
  Girls are reported as attempting suicide more. But from the very article we're talking about, boys are repeatedly ignored when they give indications of suicide. And even to the extent that girls do attempt suicide more often, it's relevant that they use it as a cry for help and are more likely to receive that help (still not likely enough to receive it), while boys' intentions in committing suicide are more focused on actually completing it. I agree it's not a competition. But pointing out demographic trends and that some groups are more likely to commit suicide doesn't mean that you think other groups don't deserve attention and support. It's unclear why you're telling me it's not a competition for pointing out exactly that; the article does the exact same thing (except with LGBT youth and nonwhite youth), but it'd be silly for someone to come in and say that the author is trying to turn it into a competition. It's especially galling that you're accusing me of trying to turn it into a competition when the comment I was replying to (and you yourself!) jumped in entirely out of the blue to argue that girls have it worse, while I made no statement that boys have it worse.
  - bluefirebrand 5y ago
    > It's especially galling that you're accusing me of trying to turn it into a competition when the comment I was replying to jumped in entirely out of the blue to argue that girls have it worse Why would you assume my words were "accusing" you of anything, rather than just a general observation as part of a conversation that people are having? Presumably the OP you were responding to would potentially also read my reply to you and also see what I am saying. Or maybe I was just trying to head off people replying to my own post accusing me of making it into a competition, by making it clear that I have already considered that and agree with it, but still felt the rest of my post was a contribution to the discussion.
- garbagetime 5y ago
  Suicide is really easy if you actually want to die. I assume "attempted suicide" is most often closer to a cry for help than a genuine attempt to end one's life.
  - Overtonwindow 5y ago
    Helium tank and a plastic bag is the easiest according to Final Exit.
    - garbagetime 5y ago
      I'm not sure about that. Maybe it's the best solution to the problem of finding an easy way to commit suicide relatively painlessly. If you don't mind experiencing extreme discomfort, there are easier ways to commit suicide. I.e. ways that require less effort.
      - Handytinge 4y ago
        I can't imagine the amount of effort is relevant if it's your final act. What would you be saving your energy for?
  - saila 5y ago
    I'm not sure about with children, but with adults men are more likely to use a gun, at least in the U.S. I think partly that's due to access, but it may also point to some other gender difference.
    - scarmig 5y ago
      Even in places with strictly limited access to guns (e.g. the U.K., Japan), you see the same pattern of men committing suicide at a higher rate than women. The hypothesis I find most compelling is that the intentions behind suicides are different between the sexes, though it's also likely that women are generally more hesitant to use methods that disfigure the body (and are more effective) than are men, even when intention is controlled for.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  You see this in adults because men choose more effective methods of suicide like guns.
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    According to CDC this is also true for youth. Males use firearms 53% of the time, females only 19%.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      Men are more likely to succeed with suicide regardless of the method. Men who overdose on medicine takes much higher dosages and therefore succeeds more often etc. The reason women don't succeed is because they aren't as serious and therefore chooses dosages or methods where you are very unlikely to die, as can be seen in this study for example: https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-017-1398-8 https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12...
saila 5y ago
Some commenters in this thread seem to think that boys aren't as valued as girls, and I haven't seen any evidence for that. In fact, in many ways, the opposite seems true. The statistics regarding suicide don't prove that boys are less valued than girls. That's my only point here.

thr0wawayf00 5y ago

The abstract also makes the distinction that boys are much more successful in actually committing suicide than girls, so I don't see how this proves that girls are more troubled.