6 ms·

Oddly, the article doesn't mention anything about gender roles or the disproportionate impact of suicide on young boys, even though they commit suicide at 4x th

Oddly, the article doesn't mention anything about gender roles or the disproportionate impact of suicide on young boys, even though they commit suicide at 4x the rate of young girls[0]. This is especially odd because the author of the article does feel comfortable discussing other demographic trends, like elevated rates among LGBT and non-white youth, even though those trends are much smaller in magnitude than that of boys compared to girls. [0] https://www.kidsdata.org/topic/210/suicides-gender/table https://www.kidsdata.org/topic/210/suicides-gender/table

cultofmetatron 5y ago
- dang 5y ago
  Please point it out without taking HN threads further into flamewar. That doesn't do anybody any good. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - cultofmetatron 5y ago
    - dang 5y ago
      "No one gives a shit about young boys" is not a fact. That's flamewar rhetoric. I realize that you're expressing a feeling there and I'm sure the feeling is a good and well-intentioned one, but the problem is that inflammatory rhetoric like that, on the internet, just runs into other people's intense feelings and blows up. Then we get a dumb and nasty thread instead of a thoughtful curious one. There are much better ways to express your concerns that don't break the HN guidelines. I'm just asking you to use one of those ways, instead of this way. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - cultofmetatron 5y ago
        fine, let me rephrase that. There's an aggressive societal push towards taking an apathetic stance towards the mental health among boys. White boys from poorer communities seem the most egregiously affected by this but they are hardly the only ones. Certain groups who feel that there is a zero sum game when it comes to empathy seem especially threatened by the notion that we pay any attention to this issue and aggressivly push back against any attempts to talk about it out of some sense of moral superiority. when I saw those idiots with the tikki torches, what I saw was insecurity by people withheld from any sense of meaningful identity. So much so that they revert to the ridiculous notion of being proud of their skin color because they have little else to go on. This root of the issue hasn't been addressed at all and by continuing to shame boys for being boys and creating an outlet for positive masculinity, we are leading society towards a very dark path. happy?
        happytoexplain 5y ago
        I can't picture the specific phenomenon you're referring to, even abstractly, when you say things like "an aggressive societal push towards taking an apathetic stance towards the mental health among boys" and "Certain groups ... seem especially threatened by the notion that we pay any attention to this issue and aggressivly push back", and use the tiki-torch demonstrators as an example. It sounds like you're talking about the unrest and hate surrounding social politics, but are inserting male children who kill themselves in the place where the alt-right (or related terms) would normally appear. The sarcastic "happy?" is maybe an indicator that this is not laid out in exactly the least emotional way, which is maybe part of the problem of clarity - do you have anything more specific in mind when you refer to this seemingly crazy movement against the very idea of helping suicidal young boys? That's a very broad, seemingly non-political thing to be "against".
        cultofmetatron 5y ago
        > The sarcastic "happy?" is maybe an indicator that this is not laid out in exactly the least emotional way, which is maybe part of the problem of clarity You're right. having grown up in massachusetts, and having spent a good amount of time in califonia, I've grown a somewhat kneejerk reaction to liberal hypocracy. Don't get my wrong, I have no love for republican policies but Ive also developed a strong distaste for how certain liberal ideologies even with reasonably sound ideas at their core, percolate to the more fringe leaves of the masses. case in point, the notion of white privilege. Root idea: historical exploitation (to put it mildly) has created a system of inequality that exists to this day and largely privileges certain groups of people while disadvantaging others. We need to understand where we are in that place so that we can take steps to dismantle those institutions and create more equitable opportunities for people. What well meaning idiots end up spouting at the edge (and yes I've heard such things come out of white people's mouths): white people are all racist and toxic and should be sorry for existing. And a more direct comparison, take the notion of toxic masculinity: root idea: Societal expectations of boys are rooted in an imperative for boys to be behave in ways that are maladaptive. certain traits we define as masculine such as aggression, can result in behaviors that are deplorable. Its imperative for a healthy society to create a definition of masculinity thats rooted healthy positive behaviors and to accept traits that we associate with femininity as well in order for an individual to be emotionally "whole." Part of this means redefining roles for men taht embrace the good qualities of masculinity (healthy competitiveness, jovial pride, brotherhood and a modicum of stoicism) while avoiding the negative traits, (entitlement, tribalism, blaming others for ones failiures) * What well meaning zealots end up spouting at the edge "kill all men." "toxic masculinity bad mmkay" "I drink male tears" Now to answer your question about why I bring up far right to a story about suicide. Its all connected. People express mental anguish differently. Some of the kids going though difficulty right now will get through it and find their way to a healthy adulthood. Some people, seeking an outlet to justify their feelings will join groups promoting maladaptive behavior in a desperate bid to feel part of an in group. This is where I make the connection to the tiki torch groups. Others sadly take the quick path out the metaphorical door. Now you might ask, Why do I care so much about what fanatics at the edge think? Its because they are the straw man talking heads like tucker carlson push when trying to make their own regressive agenda seem like the sane choice. Its ultimately counterproductive towards the very ideals we should be working towards as a society. anyways, props to you if you get this far down. Hope it clarifies my point
    - scarmig 5y ago
      I'm obviously sympathetic to your concerns, but particularly when it comes to pointing out things that don't mesh with the mainstream narrative, it's most effective to state the facts and let them speak for themselves. That's enough to get people interested in the truth to draw their own conclusions.
saila 5y ago
The abstract you linked to says "female youth more often attempt suicide," which might indicate that girls are more troubled growing up.
- scarmig 5y ago
  It's also odd that somehow the fact that boys commit suicide at four times the rate of girls can be used as a soapbox to try to prove that girls are more troubled growing up. But the point here is that the article omits this critical fact, even though being male identified is overwhelmingly the strongest demographic factor indicating risk of suicide. Doesn't that warrant at least a sentence?
  - bluefirebrand 5y ago
    Girls attempt it more, boys succeed more. It's not entirely unreasonable to suggest that "more attempts overall" = "more troubled" Maybe boys are overall less troubled than girls but just choose more effective forms of suicide. Maybe boys choose more effective forms of suicide because they are in fact way more troubled. Really though, it's not a competition. We should be able to help both boys and girls, in ways that are effective for each group.
    - scarmig 5y ago
      Girls are reported as attempting suicide more. But from the very article we're talking about, boys are repeatedly ignored when they give indications of suicide. And even to the extent that girls do attempt suicide more often, it's relevant that they use it as a cry for help and are more likely to receive that help (still not likely enough to receive it), while boys' intentions in committing suicide are more focused on actually completing it. I agree it's not a competition. But pointing out demographic trends and that some groups are more likely to commit suicide doesn't mean that you think other groups don't deserve attention and support. It's unclear why you're telling me it's not a competition for pointing out exactly that; the article does the exact same thing (except with LGBT youth and nonwhite youth), but it'd be silly for someone to come in and say that the author is trying to turn it into a competition. It's especially galling that you're accusing me of trying to turn it into a competition when the comment I was replying to (and you yourself!) jumped in entirely out of the blue to argue that girls have it worse, while I made no statement that boys have it worse.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jmcgough 5y ago
The difference is that it's very cut and dry with POC and LGBT. Across gender lines the difference is murkier in adolescence - one attempts suicide at higher rates, but the other succeeds more often.
- scarmig 5y ago
  The point is that gender still plays a far larger role in the structure of suicide demographics than either race or being LGBT, and it's odd to exclude any mention of that. The fact that boys commit suicide at 4x the rate of girls while girls attempt suicide at 3x the rate of boys is both interesting and more powerful in understanding the epidemiology of suicide than less elevated rates in smaller demographics.

cultofmetatron 5y ago

dang 5y ago
Please point it out without taking HN threads further into flamewar. That doesn't do anybody any good. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- cultofmetatron 5y ago
  - dang 5y ago
    "No one gives a shit about young boys" is not a fact. That's flamewar rhetoric. I realize that you're expressing a feeling there and I'm sure the feeling is a good and well-intentioned one, but the problem is that inflammatory rhetoric like that, on the internet, just runs into other people's intense feelings and blows up. Then we get a dumb and nasty thread instead of a thoughtful curious one. There are much better ways to express your concerns that don't break the HN guidelines. I'm just asking you to use one of those ways, instead of this way. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - cultofmetatron 5y ago
      fine, let me rephrase that. There's an aggressive societal push towards taking an apathetic stance towards the mental health among boys. White boys from poorer communities seem the most egregiously affected by this but they are hardly the only ones. Certain groups who feel that there is a zero sum game when it comes to empathy seem especially threatened by the notion that we pay any attention to this issue and aggressivly push back against any attempts to talk about it out of some sense of moral superiority. when I saw those idiots with the tikki torches, what I saw was insecurity by people withheld from any sense of meaningful identity. So much so that they revert to the ridiculous notion of being proud of their skin color because they have little else to go on. This root of the issue hasn't been addressed at all and by continuing to shame boys for being boys and creating an outlet for positive masculinity, we are leading society towards a very dark path. happy?
      - happytoexplain 5y ago
        I can't picture the specific phenomenon you're referring to, even abstractly, when you say things like "an aggressive societal push towards taking an apathetic stance towards the mental health among boys" and "Certain groups ... seem especially threatened by the notion that we pay any attention to this issue and aggressivly push back", and use the tiki-torch demonstrators as an example. It sounds like you're talking about the unrest and hate surrounding social politics, but are inserting male children who kill themselves in the place where the alt-right (or related terms) would normally appear. The sarcastic "happy?" is maybe an indicator that this is not laid out in exactly the least emotional way, which is maybe part of the problem of clarity - do you have anything more specific in mind when you refer to this seemingly crazy movement against the very idea of helping suicidal young boys? That's a very broad, seemingly non-political thing to be "against".
        cultofmetatron 5y ago
        > The sarcastic "happy?" is maybe an indicator that this is not laid out in exactly the least emotional way, which is maybe part of the problem of clarity You're right. having grown up in massachusetts, and having spent a good amount of time in califonia, I've grown a somewhat kneejerk reaction to liberal hypocracy. Don't get my wrong, I have no love for republican policies but Ive also developed a strong distaste for how certain liberal ideologies even with reasonably sound ideas at their core, percolate to the more fringe leaves of the masses. case in point, the notion of white privilege. Root idea: historical exploitation (to put it mildly) has created a system of inequality that exists to this day and largely privileges certain groups of people while disadvantaging others. We need to understand where we are in that place so that we can take steps to dismantle those institutions and create more equitable opportunities for people. What well meaning idiots end up spouting at the edge (and yes I've heard such things come out of white people's mouths): white people are all racist and toxic and should be sorry for existing. And a more direct comparison, take the notion of toxic masculinity: root idea: Societal expectations of boys are rooted in an imperative for boys to be behave in ways that are maladaptive. certain traits we define as masculine such as aggression, can result in behaviors that are deplorable. Its imperative for a healthy society to create a definition of masculinity thats rooted healthy positive behaviors and to accept traits that we associate with femininity as well in order for an individual to be emotionally "whole." Part of this means redefining roles for men taht embrace the good qualities of masculinity (healthy competitiveness, jovial pride, brotherhood and a modicum of stoicism) while avoiding the negative traits, (entitlement, tribalism, blaming others for ones failiures) * What well meaning zealots end up spouting at the edge "kill all men." "toxic masculinity bad mmkay" "I drink male tears" Now to answer your question about why I bring up far right to a story about suicide. Its all connected. People express mental anguish differently. Some of the kids going though difficulty right now will get through it and find their way to a healthy adulthood. Some people, seeking an outlet to justify their feelings will join groups promoting maladaptive behavior in a desperate bid to feel part of an in group. This is where I make the connection to the tiki torch groups. Others sadly take the quick path out the metaphorical door. Now you might ask, Why do I care so much about what fanatics at the edge think? Its because they are the straw man talking heads like tucker carlson push when trying to make their own regressive agenda seem like the sane choice. Its ultimately counterproductive towards the very ideals we should be working towards as a society. anyways, props to you if you get this far down. Hope it clarifies my point
  - scarmig 5y ago
    I'm obviously sympathetic to your concerns, but particularly when it comes to pointing out things that don't mesh with the mainstream narrative, it's most effective to state the facts and let them speak for themselves. That's enough to get people interested in the truth to draw their own conclusions.

saila 5y ago

The abstract you linked to says "female youth more often attempt suicide," which might indicate that girls are more troubled growing up.

scarmig 5y ago
It's also odd that somehow the fact that boys commit suicide at four times the rate of girls can be used as a soapbox to try to prove that girls are more troubled growing up. But the point here is that the article omits this critical fact, even though being male identified is overwhelmingly the strongest demographic factor indicating risk of suicide. Doesn't that warrant at least a sentence?
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  Girls attempt it more, boys succeed more. It's not entirely unreasonable to suggest that "more attempts overall" = "more troubled" Maybe boys are overall less troubled than girls but just choose more effective forms of suicide. Maybe boys choose more effective forms of suicide because they are in fact way more troubled. Really though, it's not a competition. We should be able to help both boys and girls, in ways that are effective for each group.
  - scarmig 5y ago
    Girls are reported as attempting suicide more. But from the very article we're talking about, boys are repeatedly ignored when they give indications of suicide. And even to the extent that girls do attempt suicide more often, it's relevant that they use it as a cry for help and are more likely to receive that help (still not likely enough to receive it), while boys' intentions in committing suicide are more focused on actually completing it. I agree it's not a competition. But pointing out demographic trends and that some groups are more likely to commit suicide doesn't mean that you think other groups don't deserve attention and support. It's unclear why you're telling me it's not a competition for pointing out exactly that; the article does the exact same thing (except with LGBT youth and nonwhite youth), but it'd be silly for someone to come in and say that the author is trying to turn it into a competition. It's especially galling that you're accusing me of trying to turn it into a competition when the comment I was replying to (and you yourself!) jumped in entirely out of the blue to argue that girls have it worse, while I made no statement that boys have it worse.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jmcgough 5y ago

The difference is that it's very cut and dry with POC and LGBT. Across gender lines the difference is murkier in adolescence - one attempts suicide at higher rates, but the other succeeds more often.

scarmig 5y ago
The point is that gender still plays a far larger role in the structure of suicide demographics than either race or being LGBT, and it's odd to exclude any mention of that. The fact that boys commit suicide at 4x the rate of girls while girls attempt suicide at 3x the rate of boys is both interesting and more powerful in understanding the epidemiology of suicide than less elevated rates in smaller demographics.