5 ms·

It's sad but when I read about children who are 'precocious', I think either their parents are driving them too hard, or (because of the example of a 4th grade

It's sad but when I read about children who are 'precocious', I think either their parents are driving them too hard, or (because of the example of a 4th grade boy bringing a girl to a school event...) there's been some sexual / emotional abuse [1]. None of what is being described here is normal childhood behavior, which makes sense, since the family is not at all normal. Both parents are hotshot career-focused individuals. It begs the question if the kids ever had time to just be kids. As I've discovered over the years going from a 'work hard, play hard' youth to a more mellow adult, is that balance is the key, and most people today simply lack it, and these parents sure sound like it. I mean... just reading about their life before the suicides already stressed me out. EDIT: Also, the article spent very little time talking about the human impact of COVID lockdowns (it mentioned them, but did not dwell). Passages like this: > I asked Angela if we could come by for a condolence call. She said yes, if we were vaccinated. Because vaccines were not yet available to children, she added, “Don’t bring George.” She paused, then explained, “It’s just—because of Agnes. She can’t get vaccinated yet, either. And she’s all I have left.” In the following weeks, Angela told her story over and over to any friend who asked, as though she could contain it through repetition. For Billy, even conversational boilerplate was a struggle. Make me think the parents were a bit over the top with regards to covid lockdowns. Children not being able to see friends? Human companionship (physical presence) is a basic human need on par with food and water. No one's surprised when a child dies from lack of food. Lack of intimate friendship is the same. EDIT 2: > Trevor, the child of well-off, educated parents, had far better mental-health support than most American children, but was not saved by it In my experience, it's better to come from a lower middle class family (so enough money to eat and have everything you need, but not too much), than to come from outright wealth. Money is not a solution to every problem, and too much money and luxury is the root cause of many mental illness. [1] I wrote this comment before reading the article, but the article later goes on to talk about how we was abused. I don't want to say 'I told you so', but the signs were all there. It's interesting... the New Yorker doesn't even stop to question whether the rise in child suicide rates may be due to a rise in child sex abuse.

jeffbee 5y ago
Just because a family doesn't want hundreds of acquaintances visiting their home does not imply that their children were unable to see their friends. Many families throughout the COVID era have adopted the stable cohort, where the people in that cohort freely intermix, but limit interactions and take precautions with outsiders.
oneoff786 5y ago
> Both parents are hotshot career-focused individuals. It begs the question if the kids ever had time to just be kids. Yeah I’m gonna doubt that. Not that dual career households don’t have their own difficulties but that’s nothing compared to the effects of poverty. The article mentions a huge effect size of being black. I would guess wealthy families have drastically lower rates of child suicide.
- cflewis 5y ago
  Honestly I just think we all think kids should have easier lives, but they are never going to get that idealized version, be it poverty, war, issues with the family, racism... the list goes on and on. We can only try to do the best with the tools we have, but the candy-coated life we think kids should have I doubt ever really existed. Maybe in the nuclear family 1950s. If you were white, at least.
- travisathougies 5y ago
  I would imagine there's a U shaped curve. If you have too little and can't feed yourself / meet basic needs, I imagine suicide is a problem. If you have too much and can't spend time with your kids because you're working too much (mom being a hot shot lawyer and dad being a hotshot financier is not a 'normal' situation), then I imagine it's also a problem. Both money and family time are necessary for kids to thrive. If you have one and not the other, it's going to be a problem.
  - oneoff786 5y ago
    It’s not a “normal” situation but it’s going to be better than many. It may even be better than normal if normal is the median. All we hear about the parent’s work lives is > Trevor’s mother, Angela Matthews, a driven intellectual-property lawyer in her early forties, studied ballet and still carries herself like a dancer. Her intelligence and the intensity of her character can make her intimidating, but she is also given to acts of tremendous kindness. Trevor’s father, Billy Matthews, who works in finance, is affable and athletic. They have a daughter, Agnes, three and a half years younger than Trevor; Billy also has two sons, Trey and Tristen, from a previous marriage. To extrapolate from this that they are over consumed with work and failed to parent their child seems like an extreme and frankly offensive claim. The term “hot shot” is never used and even if it had been, says nothing about their availability as a parent. You can be a hot shot at your career and still be available. The problem for this child is, unquestionably, that he was the victim of a sexual predator at a camp. The prevalence of these super career oriented, damagingly absent parents is for sure much rarer than implied. And probably not even a strong predictor of being neglectful parents
civilized 5y ago
Before blaming parents for a child's qualities, have a couple kids yourself. See how incredibly different they are in personality, in strengths and weaknesses, in resiliences and fragilities. Then, if your kids are normal and healthy, think about how lucky you are that your children aren't physically or mentally ill.
- foogazi 5y ago
  Yes, each person is their own different package
- travisathougies 5y ago
  (1) I do have children, (2) your statements assume, without possibility of falsification, that such mental illness is not at all due to environmental factors. This unfalsifiable nature makes these statements religious in nature, so I'm not going to bother questioning or arguing with them.
  - civilized 5y ago
    > (1) I do have children Awesome. I still stand by everything I said. > (2) your statements assume, without possibility of falsification, that such mental illness is not at all due to environmental factors No, they quite obviously don't. I'm pointing out the difficulty of knowing what contributed to a child's death in the context of mental illness, which can be both genetic and environmental in origin, and is not always in a parent's ability to influence. You can have two perfectly nice parents raise a literal psychopath and no one knows why. Happens all the time. The idea that you can ignore this and zero in on the parents based on the info in this article is completely contrary to our scientific understanding of child (and adult) psychology. The abuse, on the other hand, is obviously an important contributor, as you said. No dispute there.

jeffbee 5y ago

Just because a family doesn't want hundreds of acquaintances visiting their home does not imply that their children were unable to see their friends. Many families throughout the COVID era have adopted the stable cohort, where the people in that cohort freely intermix, but limit interactions and take precautions with outsiders.

oneoff786 5y ago

> Both parents are hotshot career-focused individuals. It begs the question if the kids ever had time to just be kids. Yeah I’m gonna doubt that. Not that dual career households don’t have their own difficulties but that’s nothing compared to the effects of poverty. The article mentions a huge effect size of being black. I would guess wealthy families have drastically lower rates of child suicide.

cflewis 5y ago
Honestly I just think we all think kids should have easier lives, but they are never going to get that idealized version, be it poverty, war, issues with the family, racism... the list goes on and on. We can only try to do the best with the tools we have, but the candy-coated life we think kids should have I doubt ever really existed. Maybe in the nuclear family 1950s. If you were white, at least.
travisathougies 5y ago
I would imagine there's a U shaped curve. If you have too little and can't feed yourself / meet basic needs, I imagine suicide is a problem. If you have too much and can't spend time with your kids because you're working too much (mom being a hot shot lawyer and dad being a hotshot financier is not a 'normal' situation), then I imagine it's also a problem. Both money and family time are necessary for kids to thrive. If you have one and not the other, it's going to be a problem.
- oneoff786 5y ago
  It’s not a “normal” situation but it’s going to be better than many. It may even be better than normal if normal is the median. All we hear about the parent’s work lives is > Trevor’s mother, Angela Matthews, a driven intellectual-property lawyer in her early forties, studied ballet and still carries herself like a dancer. Her intelligence and the intensity of her character can make her intimidating, but she is also given to acts of tremendous kindness. Trevor’s father, Billy Matthews, who works in finance, is affable and athletic. They have a daughter, Agnes, three and a half years younger than Trevor; Billy also has two sons, Trey and Tristen, from a previous marriage. To extrapolate from this that they are over consumed with work and failed to parent their child seems like an extreme and frankly offensive claim. The term “hot shot” is never used and even if it had been, says nothing about their availability as a parent. You can be a hot shot at your career and still be available. The problem for this child is, unquestionably, that he was the victim of a sexual predator at a camp. The prevalence of these super career oriented, damagingly absent parents is for sure much rarer than implied. And probably not even a strong predictor of being neglectful parents

civilized 5y ago

Before blaming parents for a child's qualities, have a couple kids yourself. See how incredibly different they are in personality, in strengths and weaknesses, in resiliences and fragilities. Then, if your kids are normal and healthy, think about how lucky you are that your children aren't physically or mentally ill.

foogazi 5y ago
Yes, each person is their own different package
travisathougies 5y ago
(1) I do have children, (2) your statements assume, without possibility of falsification, that such mental illness is not at all due to environmental factors. This unfalsifiable nature makes these statements religious in nature, so I'm not going to bother questioning or arguing with them.
- civilized 5y ago
  > (1) I do have children Awesome. I still stand by everything I said. > (2) your statements assume, without possibility of falsification, that such mental illness is not at all due to environmental factors No, they quite obviously don't. I'm pointing out the difficulty of knowing what contributed to a child's death in the context of mental illness, which can be both genetic and environmental in origin, and is not always in a parent's ability to influence. You can have two perfectly nice parents raise a literal psychopath and no one knows why. Happens all the time. The idea that you can ignore this and zero in on the parents based on the info in this article is completely contrary to our scientific understanding of child (and adult) psychology. The abuse, on the other hand, is obviously an important contributor, as you said. No dispute there.