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Groups like Azov are actively supported by the Ukrainian government, and videos of pow torture by them keeps coming out in social media. I am open to the idea t

Groups like Azov are actively supported by the Ukrainian government, and videos of pow torture by them keeps coming out in social media. I am open to the idea that those are false-flag operations by the Russian army itself... but are you willing to consider that something like this can be a false-flag operation by groups like Azov with the knowledge or blessing of the Ukrainian government?

ethanwillis 5y ago
Let's talk about Azov again when Russians aren't standing on foreign soil. Also according to Russia they can't be PoW if there isn't a war. What protections are afforded to foreign spies?
- ComradePhil 5y ago
  > if there isn't a war If Russia is not calling this a war, why it RT reporting it as "war"? https://www.rt.com/news/552636-stoltenberg-stays-nato-ukraine/ https://www.rt.com/news/552636-stoltenberg-stays-nato-ukrain...
  - ethanwillis 5y ago
    Show me where Russian government officials claim it's a war and not a special military operation. Also explain the discrepancy in writing in the Russian version of the same article. For some reason for Russian speakers it's a "situtation" in Ukraine. https://russian.rt.com/world/news/980654-god-nato-stoltenberg https://russian.rt.com/world/news/980654-god-nato-stoltenber... "Лидеры НАТО согласовали продление полномочий генсека альянса Йенса Столтенберга ещё на год на фоне ситуации на Украине." Don't assume that people are fucking stupid just because you think they only know English.
decebalus1 5y ago
> Groups like Azov are actively supported by the Ukrainian government So is the Wagner group with the Russian government. Your point being? > videos of pow torture As per the Russians, this is not a war. Hence, they're not prisoners of war. Or we can have our cake and eat it too? If something bad happens to a Russian soldier on Ukrainian territory, that's that all part of a 'Special Hospitality Operation'. In terms of your second point, no. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_deception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_deception By default, the Russians are lying, unless there's evidence that they're not. They lied about Crimea, they lied about invading Ukraine, they lied about the refugee corridors, they basically lied about everything, if it suited their goals. They're lying right now. Satellite images show that the mass graves were there since before the Russians left Bucha. What they did there is something all Eastern Europeans who had ancestors 'liberated' by the Russians know too well.. Not to minimize the current tragedy, but this is tame compared to the past exploits of the Red Army. I bet this is just the tip of the iceberg and that the south-east of Ukraine is pretty much hell on earth right now.
- ttybird2 5y ago
  "As per the Russians, this is not a war" Same for Iraq, Libya, etc. Declarations of war mostly died after WWII. "Hence, they're not prisoners of war" They are to be treated as civilians then, according to the Geneva convention. "By default, the Russians are lying, unless there's evidence that they're not" This is true for pretty much every sovereign state active on geopolitical games. Everyone will try to use PR/propaganda to justify their actions and get more people to support their cause, it is only natural.
trasz 5y ago
Those Russians aren’t POWs, they are just state-sponsored terrorists. Killing them in any way available is a lesser evil.
Mikeb85 5y ago
> Groups like Azov are actively supported by the Ukrainian government Because they're defending Ukraine amidst an invasion? Also keep in mind the extremist leaders of Azov left when they were made part of the National Guard. > but are you willing to consider that something like this can be a false-flag operation by groups like Azov with the knowledge or blessing of the Ukrainian government? Is levelling all of Mariupol a false flag? Azov doesn't even have the capability... As for Bucha, Azov operates entirely near, well, the sea of Azov (guess where they got their name from?) ie. Mariupol, which is some distance and separated from Bucha (which is north of Kyiv). And what does Ukraine gain from a false flag of killing civilians at this point? They know the west won't help. Meanwhile Russia is trying to demoralise them to surrender knowing that they'll never face repercussions for their atrocities...
rasz 5y ago
https://mobile.twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1511001899184627712 https://mobile.twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/151100189918462... "The head of the DNR, Denis Pushilin, awarding a medal to Lieutenant Colonel Timur Kurilkin for "destroying 250 Nazis" - which is ironic, considering Kurilkin has two neo-Nazi patches clearly visible on his uniform."

ethanwillis 5y ago

Let's talk about Azov again when Russians aren't standing on foreign soil. Also according to Russia they can't be PoW if there isn't a war. What protections are afforded to foreign spies?

ComradePhil 5y ago
> if there isn't a war If Russia is not calling this a war, why it RT reporting it as "war"? https://www.rt.com/news/552636-stoltenberg-stays-nato-ukraine/ https://www.rt.com/news/552636-stoltenberg-stays-nato-ukrain...
- ethanwillis 5y ago
  Show me where Russian government officials claim it's a war and not a special military operation. Also explain the discrepancy in writing in the Russian version of the same article. For some reason for Russian speakers it's a "situtation" in Ukraine. https://russian.rt.com/world/news/980654-god-nato-stoltenberg https://russian.rt.com/world/news/980654-god-nato-stoltenber... "Лидеры НАТО согласовали продление полномочий генсека альянса Йенса Столтенберга ещё на год на фоне ситуации на Украине." Don't assume that people are fucking stupid just because you think they only know English.

decebalus1 5y ago

> Groups like Azov are actively supported by the Ukrainian government So is the Wagner group with the Russian government. Your point being? > videos of pow torture As per the Russians, this is not a war. Hence, they're not prisoners of war. Or we can have our cake and eat it too? If something bad happens to a Russian soldier on Ukrainian territory, that's that all part of a 'Special Hospitality Operation'. In terms of your second point, no. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_deception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_deception By default, the Russians are lying, unless there's evidence that they're not. They lied about Crimea, they lied about invading Ukraine, they lied about the refugee corridors, they basically lied about everything, if it suited their goals. They're lying right now. Satellite images show that the mass graves were there since before the Russians left Bucha. What they did there is something all Eastern Europeans who had ancestors 'liberated' by the Russians know too well.. Not to minimize the current tragedy, but this is tame compared to the past exploits of the Red Army. I bet this is just the tip of the iceberg and that the south-east of Ukraine is pretty much hell on earth right now.

ttybird2 5y ago
"As per the Russians, this is not a war" Same for Iraq, Libya, etc. Declarations of war mostly died after WWII. "Hence, they're not prisoners of war" They are to be treated as civilians then, according to the Geneva convention. "By default, the Russians are lying, unless there's evidence that they're not" This is true for pretty much every sovereign state active on geopolitical games. Everyone will try to use PR/propaganda to justify their actions and get more people to support their cause, it is only natural.

trasz 5y ago

Those Russians aren’t POWs, they are just state-sponsored terrorists. Killing them in any way available is a lesser evil.

Mikeb85 5y ago

> Groups like Azov are actively supported by the Ukrainian government Because they're defending Ukraine amidst an invasion? Also keep in mind the extremist leaders of Azov left when they were made part of the National Guard. > but are you willing to consider that something like this can be a false-flag operation by groups like Azov with the knowledge or blessing of the Ukrainian government? Is levelling all of Mariupol a false flag? Azov doesn't even have the capability... As for Bucha, Azov operates entirely near, well, the sea of Azov (guess where they got their name from?) ie. Mariupol, which is some distance and separated from Bucha (which is north of Kyiv). And what does Ukraine gain from a false flag of killing civilians at this point? They know the west won't help. Meanwhile Russia is trying to demoralise them to surrender knowing that they'll never face repercussions for their atrocities...

rasz 5y ago

https://mobile.twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1511001899184627712 https://mobile.twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/151100189918462... "The head of the DNR, Denis Pushilin, awarding a medal to Lieutenant Colonel Timur Kurilkin for "destroying 250 Nazis" - which is ironic, considering Kurilkin has two neo-Nazi patches clearly visible on his uniform."