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> Work is a lie, play the game. If there’s any advice I could ever give anyone who has any amount of integrity and tries to live an honest life - it’s this alo

> Work is a lie, play the game. If there’s any advice I could ever give anyone who has any amount of integrity and tries to live an honest life - it’s this alone. If you don’t play the game - you’re not playing the game everyone else is and you will always lose in the end. Extremely painful to deal with for bright eyed young folks or those switching industries thinking things might be different.

gotaquestion 5y ago
I'm not sure I understand what "the game" is, and I'm in my mid-50's. I don't know whether I'm so good at the game I don't know I'm playing it--because nothing bad has happened--or, I'm not playing it at all--and nothing bad has happened. And I've been in this since the late 80's, through IBM, Microsoft, and Intel, not to mention two startups and contracting. Can you elaborate what The Game actually is?
- notch656a 5y ago
  The game is to make those around you look good. Results may be a way to achieve that, but they are subordinate to making your boss and contacts look and feel good. The 'game' is that what works at the free-market business level (maximize profit) doesn't work at the authoritarian non-free-market employee level (i.e. you win by making those with social capital look good and winning this social capital).
- bradlys 5y ago
  I feel like I’ve been at more companies than you and I started in 2013. The fuck. The game is about presenting an image that doesn’t actually exist. It’s about not acknowledging your manager is a toxic piece of shit and your company is completely broken and will likely be bankrupt in a few years while execs milk every ounce from it. It’s about faking positivity and that you’re so excited to join the company because it’s so amazing and definitely not because your previous employer is horrible. It’s about lying about past accomplishments because everyone does this in interviews so you need to stand out and seem just as good or better. It’s about knowing that the other side is doing this too and you’re not the only one lying. You get lied to during interviews, you get lied to during onboarding, you get lied to during 1:1s, you get lied to during performance reviews, and you get lied to when leaving the company. You get lied to about why you’re building the product you are. You get lied to about why we chose an architecture. You get lied to about why you didn’t get something but someone else did. (But better - you don’t ask. You play the game. You lie about knowing) It’s about acknowledging that work involved a heavy amount of lying from all sides and being honest - while noble - will not get you far in this industry. Especially in SV where lying is king. Where lying is renamed as “aspirational” speaking. Etc.
  - rramadass 5y ago
    Damn! You are right of course; words like "Truthfulness", "Trust", "Honesty", "Integrity" are liberally sprinkled everywhere but don't mean anything anymore at all. Everybody knows this but still we are all forced to play The Game.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    The game still exists in companies that build physical products, but I've found it's not quite as bad there. You're right, SV is the king of lying, along with any publicly traded company. My experience is small privately held businesses that offer physical product are the most pragmatic and 'honest.' The closer you are to the source of income, the less everything but the money matters. I like being only 1-2 steps from the money, because it means no one gives a flying fuck about anything other than the almighty dollar at all costs. At least that's a game I understand. More than 2 levels from the source of money and you're shit-deep into authoritarian politics land, where the name of the game is to buy social capital in the authoritarian structure of a corporation, with little direct ties and influence on the source of corporate persuasion (income). That is, when you're too far from the source of money, such as middle management or lower in a large corporation, your only real way to gain power is to become the most cunning psychopath rather than maximize profit. As an engineer, I've 'engineered' my personal solution by only taking jobs where I report directly to CEO/CTO/President so that politics dissolve into "make money or die." I much prefer it that way.
    - RhysU 5y ago
      This is why I choose to be near a revenue center rather than a cost center.
    - bradlys 5y ago
      I've been really close to the money making side of things and it hasn't changed anything. I think it's all dictated by the culture of the company. Almost every time, I work on the things that are making money and then the politics, the games, and the noise just come through no matter what. Maybe it works different in the physical goods space but as far as software goes - I see no difference no matter how close you are to the source of revenue.
- digisign 5y ago
  These other responses sound like an episode of Dynasty to be honest. All you have to do is keep up a minimum of a mildly positive spin on things and get your work done. That's it. To get through to management, you'll probably have to kick it up a notch for every promotion. If there's more drama that than, you're working at a poorly managed organization. Move on at the first opportunity, life is too short.
- Clubber 5y ago
  >I'm not sure I understand what "the game" is, and I'm in my mid-50's. Simple. 1. Be good at your job. 2. Don't be an asshole.
  - Rastonbury 5y ago
    Within #2 I have a rule and its never in any circumstance speak badly of anyone, if you must frame it as areas for improvement. At best you come off as whiny, at worst it flows out and you get retaliation
    - Clubber 5y ago
      Yes, it's #2 everyone has a problem with. I have another rule, don't complain, and if you do, catch yourself. That stuff is contagious, especially with the small stuff that doesn't matter. It's like a plague and it will make everyone way more miserable when they probably should be, including yourself.
- refurb 5y ago
  It’s basically “its not what the truth is, it’s what people believe”. It extends beyond the workplace into politics as well. Hell, anywhere humans interact. So you might write the best code, be the best at developing others, most productive. But none of that matters, what matters is what people believe.
- honkdaddy 5y ago
  To put it simply, The Game is acknowledging that every single other person you encounter in your workplace is just an individual agent with their own motivations and agenda.
fleddr 5y ago
Here's my old man manual to life at work. Show up and do the work, consistently. Just this basic discipline puts you in the top 20% of performers, everywhere. Make your superiors look good and in any case, not bad. They don't care what you do for as long as you do this. This does not require sucking up, just deliver. Be reliable. Deliver on promises, likewise do not commit to a promise you can't fulfill and explain why. When you mess up, admit it and fix it. Avoid politics, divisions, conflicts that put you in a camp. You have no opinion, or a very boring neutral one. Rather than share more than you know, share less than you know. Don't smear colleagues, even if they deserve it. Do all of the above humbly and silently. It will get noticed. You'll be perceived a solid no-nonsense drama free worker that gets shit done. You don't even need to ask for opportunities because they will find their way to you. Because you get things done. To me living an honest life is feeding my family which I'll always do or I'll die trying. I refuse to do work that harms society, but other than that I'll gladly tell whoever in the office anything they want to hear if "that's how it works".
- arkasan 5y ago
  This only works up to some point. Specially when you become senior, just doing the work will keep you in same position forever. Maybe you will get your annual raise etc, but people who play the game will move up and you likely have to listen and build things the way they want, even if you know the problem space well and have a good solution.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- MauranKilom 5y ago
  > I refuse to do work that harms society, but other than that I'll gladly tell whoever in the office anything they want to hear if "that's how it works". So does that preclude work where telling your boss what they want to hear puts others at risk? Where along the scale of Chernobyl, Challenger disaster, medical implants, working on Facebook ads, writing enterprise grade Java, or creating eggbeater calibration routines do you draw the line at "harms society" when all you care about is keeping your boss happy?
tamrix 5y ago
And always say the money wasn't enough. Your past employees will thank you. ;)
stocknoob 5y ago
The long-term solution is to pursue financial independence so you don’t have to walk on eggshells around the emperor, and can be your authentic self.
blablabla123 5y ago
I realize this will get you along but if everyone does this, nothing changes. Also the cost of these lies are immense for companies, managers, employees and customers. Assigning employee A for one task and B for the other although it should be reverse. IMHO that's also the reason why companies ship products that are profoundly bad for their customers and only "realize" this after many years. I know of a few people for who that is the reason why they prefer working in startups.
BizarroLand 5y ago
It's an interesting system we have. We claim to value truth but punish people for speaking it when their version of the truth doesn't make us feel good. Not acceptable during an exit interview: "My boss is an egotistical jerk who intentionally makes the job hard on his employees and here's the specific things he did with time and date stamps" Acceptable during an exit interview: "I got a job offer that fits my present and future career goals better (i.e. lets me get away from my boss who is an egotistical jerk...)"
roguas 5y ago
Disagree. The game is not set in stone, you can kick the table. Now, honesty is tricky, you can aim at being honest but not trying to be mean. You can aim at being honest but not disclosing everything. Many angles possible before going for "yeah dude, just lie". The game changes as we change. Scamming people used to be tolerated, its less and less tolerated now. Often going as far where you can honestly question if the proposed thing is really a scam or just overpriced service/good. We make those boundries.

gotaquestion 5y ago

I'm not sure I understand what "the game" is, and I'm in my mid-50's. I don't know whether I'm so good at the game I don't know I'm playing it--because nothing bad has happened--or, I'm not playing it at all--and nothing bad has happened. And I've been in this since the late 80's, through IBM, Microsoft, and Intel, not to mention two startups and contracting. Can you elaborate what The Game actually is?

notch656a 5y ago
The game is to make those around you look good. Results may be a way to achieve that, but they are subordinate to making your boss and contacts look and feel good. The 'game' is that what works at the free-market business level (maximize profit) doesn't work at the authoritarian non-free-market employee level (i.e. you win by making those with social capital look good and winning this social capital).
bradlys 5y ago
I feel like I’ve been at more companies than you and I started in 2013. The fuck. The game is about presenting an image that doesn’t actually exist. It’s about not acknowledging your manager is a toxic piece of shit and your company is completely broken and will likely be bankrupt in a few years while execs milk every ounce from it. It’s about faking positivity and that you’re so excited to join the company because it’s so amazing and definitely not because your previous employer is horrible. It’s about lying about past accomplishments because everyone does this in interviews so you need to stand out and seem just as good or better. It’s about knowing that the other side is doing this too and you’re not the only one lying. You get lied to during interviews, you get lied to during onboarding, you get lied to during 1:1s, you get lied to during performance reviews, and you get lied to when leaving the company. You get lied to about why you’re building the product you are. You get lied to about why we chose an architecture. You get lied to about why you didn’t get something but someone else did. (But better - you don’t ask. You play the game. You lie about knowing) It’s about acknowledging that work involved a heavy amount of lying from all sides and being honest - while noble - will not get you far in this industry. Especially in SV where lying is king. Where lying is renamed as “aspirational” speaking. Etc.
- rramadass 5y ago
  Damn! You are right of course; words like "Truthfulness", "Trust", "Honesty", "Integrity" are liberally sprinkled everywhere but don't mean anything anymore at all. Everybody knows this but still we are all forced to play The Game.
- notch656a 5y ago
  The game still exists in companies that build physical products, but I've found it's not quite as bad there. You're right, SV is the king of lying, along with any publicly traded company. My experience is small privately held businesses that offer physical product are the most pragmatic and 'honest.' The closer you are to the source of income, the less everything but the money matters. I like being only 1-2 steps from the money, because it means no one gives a flying fuck about anything other than the almighty dollar at all costs. At least that's a game I understand. More than 2 levels from the source of money and you're shit-deep into authoritarian politics land, where the name of the game is to buy social capital in the authoritarian structure of a corporation, with little direct ties and influence on the source of corporate persuasion (income). That is, when you're too far from the source of money, such as middle management or lower in a large corporation, your only real way to gain power is to become the most cunning psychopath rather than maximize profit. As an engineer, I've 'engineered' my personal solution by only taking jobs where I report directly to CEO/CTO/President so that politics dissolve into "make money or die." I much prefer it that way.
  - RhysU 5y ago
    This is why I choose to be near a revenue center rather than a cost center.
  - bradlys 5y ago
    I've been really close to the money making side of things and it hasn't changed anything. I think it's all dictated by the culture of the company. Almost every time, I work on the things that are making money and then the politics, the games, and the noise just come through no matter what. Maybe it works different in the physical goods space but as far as software goes - I see no difference no matter how close you are to the source of revenue.
digisign 5y ago
These other responses sound like an episode of Dynasty to be honest. All you have to do is keep up a minimum of a mildly positive spin on things and get your work done. That's it. To get through to management, you'll probably have to kick it up a notch for every promotion. If there's more drama that than, you're working at a poorly managed organization. Move on at the first opportunity, life is too short.
Clubber 5y ago
>I'm not sure I understand what "the game" is, and I'm in my mid-50's. Simple. 1. Be good at your job. 2. Don't be an asshole.
- Rastonbury 5y ago
  Within #2 I have a rule and its never in any circumstance speak badly of anyone, if you must frame it as areas for improvement. At best you come off as whiny, at worst it flows out and you get retaliation
  - Clubber 5y ago
    Yes, it's #2 everyone has a problem with. I have another rule, don't complain, and if you do, catch yourself. That stuff is contagious, especially with the small stuff that doesn't matter. It's like a plague and it will make everyone way more miserable when they probably should be, including yourself.
refurb 5y ago
It’s basically “its not what the truth is, it’s what people believe”. It extends beyond the workplace into politics as well. Hell, anywhere humans interact. So you might write the best code, be the best at developing others, most productive. But none of that matters, what matters is what people believe.
honkdaddy 5y ago
To put it simply, The Game is acknowledging that every single other person you encounter in your workplace is just an individual agent with their own motivations and agenda.

fleddr 5y ago

Here's my old man manual to life at work. Show up and do the work, consistently. Just this basic discipline puts you in the top 20% of performers, everywhere. Make your superiors look good and in any case, not bad. They don't care what you do for as long as you do this. This does not require sucking up, just deliver. Be reliable. Deliver on promises, likewise do not commit to a promise you can't fulfill and explain why. When you mess up, admit it and fix it. Avoid politics, divisions, conflicts that put you in a camp. You have no opinion, or a very boring neutral one. Rather than share more than you know, share less than you know. Don't smear colleagues, even if they deserve it. Do all of the above humbly and silently. It will get noticed. You'll be perceived a solid no-nonsense drama free worker that gets shit done. You don't even need to ask for opportunities because they will find their way to you. Because you get things done. To me living an honest life is feeding my family which I'll always do or I'll die trying. I refuse to do work that harms society, but other than that I'll gladly tell whoever in the office anything they want to hear if "that's how it works".

arkasan 5y ago
This only works up to some point. Specially when you become senior, just doing the work will keep you in same position forever. Maybe you will get your annual raise etc, but people who play the game will move up and you likely have to listen and build things the way they want, even if you know the problem space well and have a good solution.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
MauranKilom 5y ago
> I refuse to do work that harms society, but other than that I'll gladly tell whoever in the office anything they want to hear if "that's how it works". So does that preclude work where telling your boss what they want to hear puts others at risk? Where along the scale of Chernobyl, Challenger disaster, medical implants, working on Facebook ads, writing enterprise grade Java, or creating eggbeater calibration routines do you draw the line at "harms society" when all you care about is keeping your boss happy?

tamrix 5y ago

And always say the money wasn't enough. Your past employees will thank you. ;)

stocknoob 5y ago

The long-term solution is to pursue financial independence so you don’t have to walk on eggshells around the emperor, and can be your authentic self.

blablabla123 5y ago

I realize this will get you along but if everyone does this, nothing changes. Also the cost of these lies are immense for companies, managers, employees and customers. Assigning employee A for one task and B for the other although it should be reverse. IMHO that's also the reason why companies ship products that are profoundly bad for their customers and only "realize" this after many years. I know of a few people for who that is the reason why they prefer working in startups.

BizarroLand 5y ago

It's an interesting system we have. We claim to value truth but punish people for speaking it when their version of the truth doesn't make us feel good. Not acceptable during an exit interview: "My boss is an egotistical jerk who intentionally makes the job hard on his employees and here's the specific things he did with time and date stamps" Acceptable during an exit interview: "I got a job offer that fits my present and future career goals better (i.e. lets me get away from my boss who is an egotistical jerk...)"

roguas 5y ago

Disagree. The game is not set in stone, you can kick the table. Now, honesty is tricky, you can aim at being honest but not trying to be mean. You can aim at being honest but not disclosing everything. Many angles possible before going for "yeah dude, just lie". The game changes as we change. Scamming people used to be tolerated, its less and less tolerated now. Often going as far where you can honestly question if the proposed thing is really a scam or just overpriced service/good. We make those boundries.