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"The business model of the companies promoting Puppet and Chef seems to be to charge for support and/or hosted services. Which is fine. But is it leading to aby

by nigelk 15y ago

"The business model of the companies promoting Puppet and Chef seems to be to charge for support and/or hosted services. Which is fine. But is it leading to abysmal documentation?" This is one of the reasons we're moving Puppet Labs from being a support company to a product company, and not for hosted services. If your bread and butter comes in from support, you have no incentive to actually make your product easier to use. There are plenty of enterprise-y software companies who make lots of money operating like this, but that's not the sort of company I want to work for. I'm quite proud of the rapid improvement we've made on the Puppet Docs over the last year since we hired NickF, our most excellent tech writer: http://docs.puppetlabs.com/ http://docs.puppetlabs.com/ I particularly like the solution focused docs he's done, as opposed to the dry reference material that presupposes a lot of knowledge. http://docs.puppetlabs.com/learning/ http://docs.puppetlabs.com/learning/ Anyway, just wanted to point out that that's not our business model. (Product Manager at Puppet Labs)

lobster_johnson 15y ago
It's gotten better, but it still is very messy. What it needs above everything else is a table contents that stays with you as you read. The documentation you have now only lists a TOC for the section you're in. And the TOC is tucked away in the right-hand corner and stays there when you scroll. So whenever I dive into your docs, I never get a sense of "where" I am in the whole big ball of string, and I get frustrated. The first page is weirdly arranged. For example, it's got a big headline "Learning Puppet", then "Learn to use Puppet! New users: start here." Then there is a link to "Introduction and Index". I interpret this as being the link to the "new users" guide, and that the next two sections ("Part one", "Part two") are not related. But if you click on "Introduction and Index" you come to a new page which lists the exact same TOC, and has no section named "Introducion". It's confusing. The "reference manual" and "guides" sections are similarly confusing because of the lack of a unified table of contents. The reference is particularly bad because I want to look up something alphabetically ("I want to manage users, so I bet it's called 'user'"), but the reference is arranged by topic.
- nigelk 15y ago
  Those are all good points, and we know the layout needs to improve. I would add though that once you've gone through the basics, you find yourself primarily living in the Type Reference, which is arranged alphabetically. http://docs.puppetlabs.com/references/stable/type.html http://docs.puppetlabs.com/references/stable/type.html Always happy to get bug reports, feature requests and feedback on the docs... http://projects.puppetlabs.com/projects/puppet-docs http://projects.puppetlabs.com/projects/puppet-docs
  - lobster_johnson 15y ago
    > I would add though that once you've gone through the basics, you find yourself primarily living in the Type Reference Yes, that's were I ended up. I'm way beyond that level now, but I sometimes have to look something up in the docs, and always have to hunt down the URL to that particularly page.
dredmorbius 15y ago
Nigel, that's an excellent move. The one persistent thread I've seen with "support-based models", notably Red Hat, is that ... the tools leave you requiring support, and yet the support still sucks (in large part because the support engineers have to use the same crappy tools you do). I'm not going to pretend I've got the Free Software business model sorted out. But I have noticed that project goals and incentives do line up with results. Debian has a social contract, a constitution, and policy, and the tools to support these. From an ease-of-use / ease-of-maintenance perspective, Debian (and its derivatives) blow RPM-based systems out of the water. And to be clear: the distinction is much less the packaging formats (though that's part of it) and far more the use and management of these tools. I think there's someone who died recently who made the end-user experience key. While his organization struggled at times, it's emerged in recent years as an absolute behemoth which suggests ultimately that the alignment he chose is better than that of a principle rival.
- nigelk 15y ago
  Thanks for the positive words. I'm not going to pretend we've got the Free Software business model perfectly sorted either. We're producing proprietary software as well as developing/curating open source software projects, and there is a balancing act involved there. Not to sound too bandwagon-jumpy (I've found the recent hyperbolic public outpouring of grief somewhat distasteful) but I care about user experience and documentation, and I've always believed that focusing on the end user will lead you in the right direction. http://puppetlabs.com/blog/what-is-user-experience-in-puppet/ http://puppetlabs.com/blog/what-is-user-experience-in-puppet... We're looking for more UX staff, and have an open UX Designer role right now actually... http://puppetlabs.jobscore.com/jobs/puppetlabs/ux-designer/bRFWXw3Mar4juDeJe4bk1X http://puppetlabs.jobscore.com/jobs/puppetlabs/ux-designer/b...
- munchhausen 15y ago
  > From an ease-of-use / ease-of-maintenance perspective, Debian (and its derivatives) blow RPM-based systems out of the water. What kind of a comparison (Debian vs. RPM-based) is this? Does dpkg(1), as opposed to rpm(8), really make all the difference in "ease-of-use"? Of course, I understand what you mean, however, don't you think that if Debian really blew RHEL and SLES out of the water, its adoption in the enterprise server space would be a bit higher? You are kidding yourself if you pretend that the commercial distros are only used because they come with support, and also need support, being intentionally crippled. Obviously, a meaningful comparison of Debian, RHEL and SLES does not fit into a HN comment, but as someone who has used all three, I would always choose Debian last, and not only because of the lack of commercial support. (By the way, the main point of the support you get for RHEL and SLES is not access to a guy on the phone. The real value is the L3 support, i.e. bugfixing. As a Debian user who runs into a bug that cripples your system, your options are: a) fix it yourself b) pray to $DEITY that Debian developers fix it soon c) try to expedite b) by harassing Debian developers in bugzilla, which is going to be as inefficient as you'd expect. As a paying customer of Red Hat or SuSE, you are entitled to and will receive a fix for the bug ASAP, and although ASAP often translates to "a couple of weeks", it is still a hell of a lot better than what Debian can offer.)

by nigelk 15y ago

lobster_johnson 15y ago

It's gotten better, but it still is very messy. What it needs above everything else is a table contents that stays with you as you read. The documentation you have now only lists a TOC for the section you're in. And the TOC is tucked away in the right-hand corner and stays there when you scroll. So whenever I dive into your docs, I never get a sense of "where" I am in the whole big ball of string, and I get frustrated. The first page is weirdly arranged. For example, it's got a big headline "Learning Puppet", then "Learn to use Puppet! New users: start here." Then there is a link to "Introduction and Index". I interpret this as being the link to the "new users" guide, and that the next two sections ("Part one", "Part two") are not related. But if you click on "Introduction and Index" you come to a new page which lists the exact same TOC, and has no section named "Introducion". It's confusing. The "reference manual" and "guides" sections are similarly confusing because of the lack of a unified table of contents. The reference is particularly bad because I want to look up something alphabetically ("I want to manage users, so I bet it's called 'user'"), but the reference is arranged by topic.

nigelk 15y ago
Those are all good points, and we know the layout needs to improve. I would add though that once you've gone through the basics, you find yourself primarily living in the Type Reference, which is arranged alphabetically. http://docs.puppetlabs.com/references/stable/type.html http://docs.puppetlabs.com/references/stable/type.html Always happy to get bug reports, feature requests and feedback on the docs... http://projects.puppetlabs.com/projects/puppet-docs http://projects.puppetlabs.com/projects/puppet-docs
- lobster_johnson 15y ago
  > I would add though that once you've gone through the basics, you find yourself primarily living in the Type Reference Yes, that's were I ended up. I'm way beyond that level now, but I sometimes have to look something up in the docs, and always have to hunt down the URL to that particularly page.

dredmorbius 15y ago

Nigel, that's an excellent move. The one persistent thread I've seen with "support-based models", notably Red Hat, is that ... the tools leave you requiring support, and yet the support still sucks (in large part because the support engineers have to use the same crappy tools you do). I'm not going to pretend I've got the Free Software business model sorted out. But I have noticed that project goals and incentives do line up with results. Debian has a social contract, a constitution, and policy, and the tools to support these. From an ease-of-use / ease-of-maintenance perspective, Debian (and its derivatives) blow RPM-based systems out of the water. And to be clear: the distinction is much less the packaging formats (though that's part of it) and far more the use and management of these tools. I think there's someone who died recently who made the end-user experience key. While his organization struggled at times, it's emerged in recent years as an absolute behemoth which suggests ultimately that the alignment he chose is better than that of a principle rival.

nigelk 15y ago
Thanks for the positive words. I'm not going to pretend we've got the Free Software business model perfectly sorted either. We're producing proprietary software as well as developing/curating open source software projects, and there is a balancing act involved there. Not to sound too bandwagon-jumpy (I've found the recent hyperbolic public outpouring of grief somewhat distasteful) but I care about user experience and documentation, and I've always believed that focusing on the end user will lead you in the right direction. http://puppetlabs.com/blog/what-is-user-experience-in-puppet/ http://puppetlabs.com/blog/what-is-user-experience-in-puppet... We're looking for more UX staff, and have an open UX Designer role right now actually... http://puppetlabs.jobscore.com/jobs/puppetlabs/ux-designer/bRFWXw3Mar4juDeJe4bk1X http://puppetlabs.jobscore.com/jobs/puppetlabs/ux-designer/b...
munchhausen 15y ago
> From an ease-of-use / ease-of-maintenance perspective, Debian (and its derivatives) blow RPM-based systems out of the water. What kind of a comparison (Debian vs. RPM-based) is this? Does dpkg(1), as opposed to rpm(8), really make all the difference in "ease-of-use"? Of course, I understand what you mean, however, don't you think that if Debian really blew RHEL and SLES out of the water, its adoption in the enterprise server space would be a bit higher? You are kidding yourself if you pretend that the commercial distros are only used because they come with support, and also need support, being intentionally crippled. Obviously, a meaningful comparison of Debian, RHEL and SLES does not fit into a HN comment, but as someone who has used all three, I would always choose Debian last, and not only because of the lack of commercial support. (By the way, the main point of the support you get for RHEL and SLES is not access to a guy on the phone. The real value is the L3 support, i.e. bugfixing. As a Debian user who runs into a bug that cripples your system, your options are: a) fix it yourself b) pray to $DEITY that Debian developers fix it soon c) try to expedite b) by harassing Debian developers in bugzilla, which is going to be as inefficient as you'd expect. As a paying customer of Red Hat or SuSE, you are entitled to and will receive a fix for the bug ASAP, and although ASAP often translates to "a couple of weeks", it is still a hell of a lot better than what Debian can offer.)