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This is a useful analysis of what "being an adult" means. I've noticed that the moment when I feel like avoiding social discomfort or potential conflict as the

by achou 5y ago

This is a useful analysis of what "being an adult" means. I've noticed that the moment when I feel like avoiding social discomfort or potential conflict as the precise moment when I have a choice: either be an adult and understand what I want and communicate it, or avoid it and dislike myself and project those feelings onto others. Invariably when I choose to behave like an adult I feel empowered and ultimately at peace with myself and others in the end. If I choose avoidance, resentment builds, and further avoidance follows. The idea that avoidance behaviors can be selfish or agreeable cuts through much self-deception. This can be helpful when I tell myself "I'm just being nice" because it adds the proviso: "yeah, but I'm not being an adult." Which I could see being a really helpful inner monologue in those situations. This is also intimately connected to the concept of "taking responsibility", which begins with not avoiding something which "someone else" might deal with so you don't have to.

bumby 5y ago
Everything you said is true, but just to add a little nuance, I think it's possible that avoidance can still be the correct choice when confrontation is unhelpful. Confrontation for the sake of confrontation is another form of indulging yourself to avoid certain emotions, like feeling weak or disempowered. Managing that in the height of emotion takes some real meta-cognition.
- achou 5y ago
  Keep in mind that "avoidance" in this context refers to not confronting one's own feelings and intuition. After grappling with that feeling explicitly, avoiding overt conflict can certainly be an adult decision to make.
  - philosopher1234 5y ago
    Our feelings are vast and bottomless. It is impossible to confront all of them, and for the same reason its undesirable. Avoiding your feelings can be useful too.
    - ketzo 5y ago
      Maybe it’s just personal experience, but I vehemently and totally disagree with this. There has never been a time in my life where I was better off because I ignored my feelings. Literally never. There are times that we should avoid acting on some of our feelings. But to do that well, and without further self-harm, requires that you know what they are, and what those feelings are influencing you to do. It is absolutely not impossible to confront all of your feelings. Difficult, yes. Exhausting, yes. Impossible? Absolutely not. And I really think it’s doing yourself a disservice to ever believe that you have depths that you yourself are incapable of facing.
      - bumby 5y ago
        I think maybe the point of disagreement may be due to "ignoring" vs. "succumbing" to one's feelings. I think it's almost always useful to acknowledge emotions, but it doesn't mean you have to reactively give in to them. It's sometimes better to view them as a car on a railroad track that will soon be out of sight than to hop on that car and see where it takes you.
      - dorkwood 5y ago
        I can think of a time when I was better off because I ignored my feelings. I've struggled with anxiety a lot throughout my life, especially in the lead up to something like a public speaking engagement. For a time, I always tried to reason through it. Why was I feeling anxious? Was it feelings of inadequacy? Perfectionism? Not wanting to disappoint my peers? Any attempt to interrogate those feelings and confront them usually had the opposite effect: I'd feel even more anxious. On one particular occasion I was scheduled to present to a client at a new job, and the feelings of anxiety started bubbling again. But, this time, I’d had enough. None of my past strategies had ever worked, so I decided I wasn't going to do them. I thought, if my brain is going to flood my body with stress hormones, then it can go right ahead. If I was anxious, then I'd deliver the presentation anxious. I sat in the lobby and allowed the feelings to envelope me. To my surprise, the anxiety began to lift. What I eventually realized is that my anxiety in those situations was caused by a fight or flight response. My body was trying to spur me to action, and by pausing to think about those anxious feelings — where they were coming from, how I might address them, etc. — I wasn’t doing anything to address the response itself. When I instead choose to ignore the feeling and do the action regardless, it sends a signal to my brain: I’ve chosen to fight. The stress response is no longer necessary, and the feeling goes away.
- gotaquestion 5y ago
  There's a difference between being "assertive" and "aggressive". I've had this discussion in the past on HN and it seems people want to treat both as the same, not saying that you are. Aggression is rarely, if ever, useful, both directed at someone or coming from someone.
  - macrolocal 5y ago
    Assertive avoidance is often the correct response to aggression (cf. Miyagi-Do).
- wintermutestwin 5y ago
  Very true and well said. Ask yourself these two questions: 1. What do I hope to gain from this interaction? 2. Given #1, what course of action is most likely to achieve your desired result? Confrontation is almost never the best answer for #2.
  - robomc 5y ago
    Taken too far, the "what do I hope to gain" thing can be kind of life-shrinking (because it's not always clear what you'll gain from interactions up front, and that lack of clarity tracks with the quality of what you'll gain too, in some situations) BUT it's definitely a higher-order consideration that way too few people employ.
    - CornCobs 5y ago
      Yeah. IMO reducing everything to cost-benefit analysis feels like one of those "Silicon Valley" endeavours the feature article talks about - sounds attractive, but ultimately we ought to grow out of the good/bad one-dimensional thinking
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- phamilton 5y ago
  A good mnemonic I was told once was HTTP: Helpful? True? right Time? right Place? If any of those is a No, then confrontation will likely not be helpful.
  - olalonde 5y ago
    That's the most HN comment I have read in a while.
  - bumby 5y ago
    This is right inline with the Buddhist suggestion of not speaking unless the five conditions below are met. "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will"
    - phamilton 5y ago
      Yeah, this was directly adapted from that.
jsnodlin 5y ago
h0l0cube 5y ago
> This can be helpful when I tell myself "I'm just being nice" because it adds the proviso: "yeah, but I'm not being an adult." There is a distinction between being 'nice' and kind. e.g., avoiding giving feedback because it's hard to do vs actually giving constructive feedback
yobbo 5y ago
> be an adult and understand what I want and communicate it ... This is as much a test of whether you are surrounded by adults. In many situations, asserting yourself can lead to disaster socially. In these cases avoidance is in fact the adult thing.

by achou 5y ago

bumby 5y ago

Everything you said is true, but just to add a little nuance, I think it's possible that avoidance can still be the correct choice when confrontation is unhelpful. Confrontation for the sake of confrontation is another form of indulging yourself to avoid certain emotions, like feeling weak or disempowered. Managing that in the height of emotion takes some real meta-cognition.

achou 5y ago
Keep in mind that "avoidance" in this context refers to not confronting one's own feelings and intuition. After grappling with that feeling explicitly, avoiding overt conflict can certainly be an adult decision to make.
- philosopher1234 5y ago
  Our feelings are vast and bottomless. It is impossible to confront all of them, and for the same reason its undesirable. Avoiding your feelings can be useful too.
  - ketzo 5y ago
    Maybe it’s just personal experience, but I vehemently and totally disagree with this. There has never been a time in my life where I was better off because I ignored my feelings. Literally never. There are times that we should avoid acting on some of our feelings. But to do that well, and without further self-harm, requires that you know what they are, and what those feelings are influencing you to do. It is absolutely not impossible to confront all of your feelings. Difficult, yes. Exhausting, yes. Impossible? Absolutely not. And I really think it’s doing yourself a disservice to ever believe that you have depths that you yourself are incapable of facing.
    - bumby 5y ago
      I think maybe the point of disagreement may be due to "ignoring" vs. "succumbing" to one's feelings. I think it's almost always useful to acknowledge emotions, but it doesn't mean you have to reactively give in to them. It's sometimes better to view them as a car on a railroad track that will soon be out of sight than to hop on that car and see where it takes you.
    - dorkwood 5y ago
      I can think of a time when I was better off because I ignored my feelings. I've struggled with anxiety a lot throughout my life, especially in the lead up to something like a public speaking engagement. For a time, I always tried to reason through it. Why was I feeling anxious? Was it feelings of inadequacy? Perfectionism? Not wanting to disappoint my peers? Any attempt to interrogate those feelings and confront them usually had the opposite effect: I'd feel even more anxious. On one particular occasion I was scheduled to present to a client at a new job, and the feelings of anxiety started bubbling again. But, this time, I’d had enough. None of my past strategies had ever worked, so I decided I wasn't going to do them. I thought, if my brain is going to flood my body with stress hormones, then it can go right ahead. If I was anxious, then I'd deliver the presentation anxious. I sat in the lobby and allowed the feelings to envelope me. To my surprise, the anxiety began to lift. What I eventually realized is that my anxiety in those situations was caused by a fight or flight response. My body was trying to spur me to action, and by pausing to think about those anxious feelings — where they were coming from, how I might address them, etc. — I wasn’t doing anything to address the response itself. When I instead choose to ignore the feeling and do the action regardless, it sends a signal to my brain: I’ve chosen to fight. The stress response is no longer necessary, and the feeling goes away.
gotaquestion 5y ago
There's a difference between being "assertive" and "aggressive". I've had this discussion in the past on HN and it seems people want to treat both as the same, not saying that you are. Aggression is rarely, if ever, useful, both directed at someone or coming from someone.
- macrolocal 5y ago
  Assertive avoidance is often the correct response to aggression (cf. Miyagi-Do).
wintermutestwin 5y ago
Very true and well said. Ask yourself these two questions: 1. What do I hope to gain from this interaction? 2. Given #1, what course of action is most likely to achieve your desired result? Confrontation is almost never the best answer for #2.
- robomc 5y ago
  Taken too far, the "what do I hope to gain" thing can be kind of life-shrinking (because it's not always clear what you'll gain from interactions up front, and that lack of clarity tracks with the quality of what you'll gain too, in some situations) BUT it's definitely a higher-order consideration that way too few people employ.
  - CornCobs 5y ago
    Yeah. IMO reducing everything to cost-benefit analysis feels like one of those "Silicon Valley" endeavours the feature article talks about - sounds attractive, but ultimately we ought to grow out of the good/bad one-dimensional thinking
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
phamilton 5y ago
A good mnemonic I was told once was HTTP: Helpful? True? right Time? right Place? If any of those is a No, then confrontation will likely not be helpful.
- olalonde 5y ago
  That's the most HN comment I have read in a while.
- bumby 5y ago
  This is right inline with the Buddhist suggestion of not speaking unless the five conditions below are met. "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will"
  - phamilton 5y ago
    Yeah, this was directly adapted from that.

jsnodlin 5y ago

h0l0cube 5y ago

> This can be helpful when I tell myself "I'm just being nice" because it adds the proviso: "yeah, but I'm not being an adult." There is a distinction between being 'nice' and kind. e.g., avoiding giving feedback because it's hard to do vs actually giving constructive feedback

yobbo 5y ago

> be an adult and understand what I want and communicate it ... This is as much a test of whether you are surrounded by adults. In many situations, asserting yourself can lead to disaster socially. In these cases avoidance is in fact the adult thing.