4 ms·

Oberlin is legally and financially responsible for the speech of its adult students? Are Universities and corporations responsible for the speech, views, and r

Oberlin is legally and financially responsible for the speech of its adult students? Are Universities and corporations responsible for the speech, views, and research of their professors and employees? This absolutely chills speech; public groups must now censor the actions of their individual members or find themselves liable legally for their ostensibly protected 1st Amendment rights. If you are a free speech absolutist or even believe in culture of free speech, which includes factually incorrect or unpopular speech, this is a troubling ruling.

tannedNerd 5y ago
" this is a troubling ruling." No its not, there are limits to free speech and those limits end at slander and libel. The university pushed statements as fact that were proven to be untrue and libelous in court. "This absolutely chills speech; public groups must now censor the actions of their individual members or find themselves liable legally for their ostensibly protected 1st Amendment rights." If the admin hadn't joined in an official capacity handing out flyers, canceling contracts, and posting libel to their own website there would be no case about the students protesting. Workers are still free to do this on their own time, but the second they do it as a part of their work, then the public group should be held responsible as that group has now made a public policy decision.
- alsaaro 5y ago
  I accept there are legally recognized limits to free speech, but Oberlin is not doing any speaking, their students are. From an institutional perspective, if you don't believe in policing your adult student's speech, or actions, are you legally liable. With this ruling you are perversely, in a manner antithetical to free discourse, and freedom of association, to police people and their politics. Imagine if South African businesses sued Universities for their boycott of Apartheid era South African goods. Or if the Claiborne Hardware Stores succeeded in suing the NAACP for damages as a result of their boycott in 1960s Mississippi. The aforementioned are widely considered virtuous; they were on the "right side of history" but remember the First Amendment also protects those lacking scruples and virtues too.
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    >I accept there are legally recognized limits to free speech, but Oberlin is not doing any speaking, their students are. This is factually incorrect, as per the above comment as well as other coverage of these events. Oberlin administrators, acting in an official capacity for the university, also made libelous statements towards the bakery. That's what they're being sued for, not the speech of their students.
    - alsaaro 5y ago
      Is Oberlin's position libel? In New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, the Supreme Court determined malice is required for libel in 1st Amendment cases involving public concern. Oberlin believed their students and adopted a position inconsistent with the facts (as established by a court), backing the wrong horse isn't malicious as much as a miscalculation. Free speech means you have the right to be wrong. Gibson's won an award of 30+ million, a punishment disproportionate to their damages, an outsized judgement which purpose is to chill political speech.
      - Manuel_D 5y ago
        Among other things, the Dean of the university handed out flyers reading "This is a RACIST establishment with a LONG ACCOUNT of RACIAL PROFILING and DISCRIMINATION". University officials encouraged people to boycott the bakery on account of this false allegation of racism. In reality, the bakery had no history of racial profiling and discrimination. These false accusations were made in retaliation for refusing to let underage Oberlin students obtain alcohol from the bakery. Making false accusations against someone, and encouraging people to boycott their business on account of that false accusation is definitely malicious. The purpose of the law is to disincentivize, or "chill" illegal activities like this. This isn't chilling support for any particular candidate or policy, this is chilling people from making false accusations of racism and encouraging people to boycott businesses on account of those false accusations.
      - AlanYx 5y ago
        Malice isn't required if the party being defamed is a private figure. See para. 62 of the judgment: "Because the Gibsons were private figures in this libel case, they were required to prove only that Oberlin acted with negligence, not actual malice."
ThrowawayR2 5y ago
> "Are Universities and corporations responsible for the speech, views, and research of their professors and employees?" Corporations have been liable for the behavior of their employees when acting in their official capacity, for ages. How is this surprising? Otherwise, software professionals like you and I would be personally liable for bugs that harm others. The misbehaving college employees should have declared (or should have been required to declare by the college) that their actions were in an individual capacity, not as a representative of the college, and absorbed the full penalty of the ruling as individuals as a consequence of their actions.
- tiahura 5y ago
  Otherwise, software professionals like you and I would be personally liable for bugs that harm others. That is incorrect. The tortfeasor is always liable. In other words, there may be ways to ALSO hold the employer liable, but the person who was actually negligent and caused the harm is ALWAYS liable. You can sue the pizza delivery guy - he hit you - or you can sue the restaurant, or both. Now, you’re not going to get sued personally over a bug, probably, but that’s because there’s no need and it wouldn’t get plaintiff any more money. That said, there are various reasons why you might be named, perhaps some insurance policy issue, or jurisdictional shenanigans, or whatever.
Manuel_D 5y ago
Oberlin is not responsible for the speech of its students. It's responsible for its own speech. It wasn't just students who falsely accused the bakery of racism. Oberlin echoed the students and made its own false accusations of racism against the bakery and among other things. That's what the lawsuit is about. The wikipedia entry has better details on the case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson%27s_Bakery_v._Oberlin_College https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson%27s_Bakery_v._Oberlin_C...

tannedNerd 5y ago

" this is a troubling ruling." No its not, there are limits to free speech and those limits end at slander and libel. The university pushed statements as fact that were proven to be untrue and libelous in court. "This absolutely chills speech; public groups must now censor the actions of their individual members or find themselves liable legally for their ostensibly protected 1st Amendment rights." If the admin hadn't joined in an official capacity handing out flyers, canceling contracts, and posting libel to their own website there would be no case about the students protesting. Workers are still free to do this on their own time, but the second they do it as a part of their work, then the public group should be held responsible as that group has now made a public policy decision.

alsaaro 5y ago
I accept there are legally recognized limits to free speech, but Oberlin is not doing any speaking, their students are. From an institutional perspective, if you don't believe in policing your adult student's speech, or actions, are you legally liable. With this ruling you are perversely, in a manner antithetical to free discourse, and freedom of association, to police people and their politics. Imagine if South African businesses sued Universities for their boycott of Apartheid era South African goods. Or if the Claiborne Hardware Stores succeeded in suing the NAACP for damages as a result of their boycott in 1960s Mississippi. The aforementioned are widely considered virtuous; they were on the "right side of history" but remember the First Amendment also protects those lacking scruples and virtues too.
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  >I accept there are legally recognized limits to free speech, but Oberlin is not doing any speaking, their students are. This is factually incorrect, as per the above comment as well as other coverage of these events. Oberlin administrators, acting in an official capacity for the university, also made libelous statements towards the bakery. That's what they're being sued for, not the speech of their students.
  - alsaaro 5y ago
    Is Oberlin's position libel? In New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, the Supreme Court determined malice is required for libel in 1st Amendment cases involving public concern. Oberlin believed their students and adopted a position inconsistent with the facts (as established by a court), backing the wrong horse isn't malicious as much as a miscalculation. Free speech means you have the right to be wrong. Gibson's won an award of 30+ million, a punishment disproportionate to their damages, an outsized judgement which purpose is to chill political speech.
    - Manuel_D 5y ago
      Among other things, the Dean of the university handed out flyers reading "This is a RACIST establishment with a LONG ACCOUNT of RACIAL PROFILING and DISCRIMINATION". University officials encouraged people to boycott the bakery on account of this false allegation of racism. In reality, the bakery had no history of racial profiling and discrimination. These false accusations were made in retaliation for refusing to let underage Oberlin students obtain alcohol from the bakery. Making false accusations against someone, and encouraging people to boycott their business on account of that false accusation is definitely malicious. The purpose of the law is to disincentivize, or "chill" illegal activities like this. This isn't chilling support for any particular candidate or policy, this is chilling people from making false accusations of racism and encouraging people to boycott businesses on account of those false accusations.
    - AlanYx 5y ago
      Malice isn't required if the party being defamed is a private figure. See para. 62 of the judgment: "Because the Gibsons were private figures in this libel case, they were required to prove only that Oberlin acted with negligence, not actual malice."

ThrowawayR2 5y ago

> "Are Universities and corporations responsible for the speech, views, and research of their professors and employees?" Corporations have been liable for the behavior of their employees when acting in their official capacity, for ages. How is this surprising? Otherwise, software professionals like you and I would be personally liable for bugs that harm others. The misbehaving college employees should have declared (or should have been required to declare by the college) that their actions were in an individual capacity, not as a representative of the college, and absorbed the full penalty of the ruling as individuals as a consequence of their actions.

tiahura 5y ago
Otherwise, software professionals like you and I would be personally liable for bugs that harm others. That is incorrect. The tortfeasor is always liable. In other words, there may be ways to ALSO hold the employer liable, but the person who was actually negligent and caused the harm is ALWAYS liable. You can sue the pizza delivery guy - he hit you - or you can sue the restaurant, or both. Now, you’re not going to get sued personally over a bug, probably, but that’s because there’s no need and it wouldn’t get plaintiff any more money. That said, there are various reasons why you might be named, perhaps some insurance policy issue, or jurisdictional shenanigans, or whatever.

Manuel_D 5y ago

Oberlin is not responsible for the speech of its students. It's responsible for its own speech. It wasn't just students who falsely accused the bakery of racism. Oberlin echoed the students and made its own false accusations of racism against the bakery and among other things. That's what the lawsuit is about. The wikipedia entry has better details on the case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson%27s_Bakery_v._Oberlin_College https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson%27s_Bakery_v._Oberlin_C...