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As with so many criticisms of "technology that enables laziness," this analysis ignores disability. Yes, it's a good thing to communicate with your friends! How

As with so many criticisms of "technology that enables laziness," this analysis ignores disability. Yes, it's a good thing to communicate with your friends! However, if you have significant social anxiety, "Tinder for bailing" could be a useful assistive technology. (And before you say "get therapy" - yes, of course, but that takes time and people should be able to live their lives whether or not they meet arbitrary standards of normal behavior.) Largely a good article, but before you decry the plastic widget that holds the book open, consider that some people are missing a finger.

hbn 5y ago
How many people are experiencing day-to-day anxiety /because/ they were enabled to avoid social interactions for so many years through apps and services like this? If the plastic widget for holding books open is occasionally lopping off fingers so you need to use it more, it might be worth decrying.
- NoraCodes 5y ago
  > How many people experiencing day-to-day anxiety /because/ they were enabled to avoid social interactions for so many years because of apps and services like this? That's a great question! I would love to see some data on this, but until I do, I don't really see any reason to believe this. Anxiety disorders are not a new phenomenon.
  - mattcwilson 5y ago
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0239133 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... > Recent accounts suggest that levels of social anxiety may be rising. Studies have indicated that greater social media usage, increased digital connectivity and visibility, and more options for non-face-to-face communication are associated with higher levels of social anxiety [32–35]. The mechanism underpinning these associations remains unclear, though studies have suggested individuals with social anxiety favour the relative ‘safety’ of online interactions [32, 36]. However, some have suggested that such distanced interactions such as via social media may displace some face to face relationships, as individuals experience greater control and enjoyment online, in turn disrupting social cohesion and leading to social isolation [37, 38]. For young people, at a time when the development of social relations is critical, the perceived safety of social interactions that take place at a distance may lead some to a spiral of withdrawal, where the prospect of normal social interactions becomes ever more challenging.
- shakezula 5y ago
  Honestly, I think a large part of my peer's (I'm solidly millennial) social anxiety stems from never having to deal with a lot of uncomfortable situations. I'm old enough that I remember a chunk of life pre-internet. Having to use corded the phone to call hang out with your friends, having to talk to parents and strangers to get a hold of your friends, calling a date to have their parent answer, having to knock on doors for church, etc... all built me up to have basically no qualms with talking to strangers, but certain younger close friends of mine can't answer the phone for the food delivery to give them the door code to their apartment. It blows my mind sometimes, but I genuinely do consider it a consequence of technology enabling them to avoid doing those things regularly.
basisword 5y ago
>> As with so many criticisms of "technology that enables laziness," this analysis ignores disability. Yes, it's a good thing to communicate with your friends! However, if you have significant social anxiety, "Tinder for bailing" could be a useful assistive technology. (And before you say "get therapy" - yes, of course, but that takes time and people should be able to live their lives whether or not they meet arbitrary standards of normal behavior.) As someone who has done the therapy I can tell you that that app, while it may help you in the short term, is only going to make things so so so much worse in the long term - to the point where you can't live your life anymore. Medicating social anxiety with avoidance is similar to medicating pain with drugs. It just gets worse and worse until it's worse than you ever imagined. Every time you don't avoid something you're taking a step in the right direction. If possible I'd highly recommend therapy :)
- NoraCodes 5y ago
  > Medicating social anxiety with avoidance is similar to medicating pain with drugs. It just gets worse and worse until it's worse than you ever imagined. The implication here is that there is always an alternative to medicating pain with drugs. There often isn't - other than letting the patient be in horrible pain forever. I'd argue that this is true for many kinds of clinical anxiety, too.
  - basisword 5y ago
    Good point, I shouldn't make assumptions. However I think that making these options so easy (via an app) will have a net negative effect on society.
    - NoraCodes 5y ago
      I don't know that it would be so easy, tbh! Using this effectively would require that your friends be bought in, and would be willing to use the app. That in and of itself would likely require some difficult conversations.
- LordDragonfang 5y ago
munificent 5y ago
I think the author of this post would likely respond by noting that people with disabilities are not babies and can maturely handle that an article decrying an app doesn't necessarily apply to them and is not trying to rob them of an assistive tool.
- NoraCodes 5y ago
  > is not trying to rob them of an assistive tool. The first anecdote in a post is about the author deciding not to build something that could be a useful accessibility tool, specifically because she sees it as a net negative - which might not be how she would think about it if she'd included people with disabilities in her analysis. Of course, this is not the end of the world; but there are cases where this kind of thinking could be much worse. "We won't put in an elevator - people should be okay with the discomfort of climbing the stairs." In fact, people did that so much that we had to pass the ADA to stop it! I am reminded of https://imgur.com/a4p4KLa https://imgur.com/a4p4KLa.
  - munificent 5y ago
    As someone who is currently in therapy for social anxiety, I think it is quite a stretch to equate an app that helps people ghost each other without feeling bad with elevators for people who can't physically climb stairs.
    - NoraCodes 5y ago
      I wasn't equating them; I explicitly said that the latter was much worse.
      - munificent 5y ago
        Sorry, you're right. Even so, by placing them on the same scale, I think you're suggesting that there's a difference only in degree and that the two are on the same moral plane. But I think the difference is significant enough that they are qualitatively not the same.
mitchdoogle 5y ago
I think she touches on this point a bit with this paragraph: "Technology babies us all the time. “Never talk to a wage worker again!” the embarrassing Seamless ads promise in so many words. “Everything you could dream of without leaving your apartment! Community without communing with a single soul!” Putting aside the marginal good these apps do for people who rely on them, their ads are clearly focused on a capable, upper-middle class that’s learned to take its neuroticism a little too seriously. They exploit what probably started as compassion-driven conversation about burnout into a recursive push for comfort at all costs. When we stretch that ethic to its limits, we make simple things like taking a phone call or being honest with a friend into something much scarier than they actually are."

hbn 5y ago

How many people are experiencing day-to-day anxiety /because/ they were enabled to avoid social interactions for so many years through apps and services like this? If the plastic widget for holding books open is occasionally lopping off fingers so you need to use it more, it might be worth decrying.

NoraCodes 5y ago
> How many people experiencing day-to-day anxiety /because/ they were enabled to avoid social interactions for so many years because of apps and services like this? That's a great question! I would love to see some data on this, but until I do, I don't really see any reason to believe this. Anxiety disorders are not a new phenomenon.
- mattcwilson 5y ago
  https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0239133 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... > Recent accounts suggest that levels of social anxiety may be rising. Studies have indicated that greater social media usage, increased digital connectivity and visibility, and more options for non-face-to-face communication are associated with higher levels of social anxiety [32–35]. The mechanism underpinning these associations remains unclear, though studies have suggested individuals with social anxiety favour the relative ‘safety’ of online interactions [32, 36]. However, some have suggested that such distanced interactions such as via social media may displace some face to face relationships, as individuals experience greater control and enjoyment online, in turn disrupting social cohesion and leading to social isolation [37, 38]. For young people, at a time when the development of social relations is critical, the perceived safety of social interactions that take place at a distance may lead some to a spiral of withdrawal, where the prospect of normal social interactions becomes ever more challenging.
shakezula 5y ago
Honestly, I think a large part of my peer's (I'm solidly millennial) social anxiety stems from never having to deal with a lot of uncomfortable situations. I'm old enough that I remember a chunk of life pre-internet. Having to use corded the phone to call hang out with your friends, having to talk to parents and strangers to get a hold of your friends, calling a date to have their parent answer, having to knock on doors for church, etc... all built me up to have basically no qualms with talking to strangers, but certain younger close friends of mine can't answer the phone for the food delivery to give them the door code to their apartment. It blows my mind sometimes, but I genuinely do consider it a consequence of technology enabling them to avoid doing those things regularly.

basisword 5y ago

>> As with so many criticisms of "technology that enables laziness," this analysis ignores disability. Yes, it's a good thing to communicate with your friends! However, if you have significant social anxiety, "Tinder for bailing" could be a useful assistive technology. (And before you say "get therapy" - yes, of course, but that takes time and people should be able to live their lives whether or not they meet arbitrary standards of normal behavior.) As someone who has done the therapy I can tell you that that app, while it may help you in the short term, is only going to make things so so so much worse in the long term - to the point where you can't live your life anymore. Medicating social anxiety with avoidance is similar to medicating pain with drugs. It just gets worse and worse until it's worse than you ever imagined. Every time you don't avoid something you're taking a step in the right direction. If possible I'd highly recommend therapy :)

NoraCodes 5y ago
> Medicating social anxiety with avoidance is similar to medicating pain with drugs. It just gets worse and worse until it's worse than you ever imagined. The implication here is that there is always an alternative to medicating pain with drugs. There often isn't - other than letting the patient be in horrible pain forever. I'd argue that this is true for many kinds of clinical anxiety, too.
- basisword 5y ago
  Good point, I shouldn't make assumptions. However I think that making these options so easy (via an app) will have a net negative effect on society.
  - NoraCodes 5y ago
    I don't know that it would be so easy, tbh! Using this effectively would require that your friends be bought in, and would be willing to use the app. That in and of itself would likely require some difficult conversations.
LordDragonfang 5y ago

munificent 5y ago

I think the author of this post would likely respond by noting that people with disabilities are not babies and can maturely handle that an article decrying an app doesn't necessarily apply to them and is not trying to rob them of an assistive tool.

NoraCodes 5y ago
> is not trying to rob them of an assistive tool. The first anecdote in a post is about the author deciding not to build something that could be a useful accessibility tool, specifically because she sees it as a net negative - which might not be how she would think about it if she'd included people with disabilities in her analysis. Of course, this is not the end of the world; but there are cases where this kind of thinking could be much worse. "We won't put in an elevator - people should be okay with the discomfort of climbing the stairs." In fact, people did that so much that we had to pass the ADA to stop it! I am reminded of https://imgur.com/a4p4KLa https://imgur.com/a4p4KLa.
- munificent 5y ago
  As someone who is currently in therapy for social anxiety, I think it is quite a stretch to equate an app that helps people ghost each other without feeling bad with elevators for people who can't physically climb stairs.
  - NoraCodes 5y ago
    I wasn't equating them; I explicitly said that the latter was much worse.
    - munificent 5y ago
      Sorry, you're right. Even so, by placing them on the same scale, I think you're suggesting that there's a difference only in degree and that the two are on the same moral plane. But I think the difference is significant enough that they are qualitatively not the same.

mitchdoogle 5y ago

I think she touches on this point a bit with this paragraph: "Technology babies us all the time. “Never talk to a wage worker again!” the embarrassing Seamless ads promise in so many words. “Everything you could dream of without leaving your apartment! Community without communing with a single soul!” Putting aside the marginal good these apps do for people who rely on them, their ads are clearly focused on a capable, upper-middle class that’s learned to take its neuroticism a little too seriously. They exploit what probably started as compassion-driven conversation about burnout into a recursive push for comfort at all costs. When we stretch that ethic to its limits, we make simple things like taking a phone call or being honest with a friend into something much scarier than they actually are."