5 ms·

Hm, #1 and #2 here just seems like a copy/paste of a conservative talking point. You're literally in the middle of a discussion about how Twitter isn't the "de

Hm, #1 and #2 here just seems like a copy/paste of a conservative talking point. You're literally in the middle of a discussion about how Twitter isn't the "de facto" public town square, because nearly nobody actually authors original tweets. In any event, fuck the public town square. That's where slaves were sold, that's where gay men were stoned, that's where people were hanged for all manner of terrible reason that had nothing whatsoever to do with justice. Twitter, as awful as it is, is many orders of magnitude better than the town square. May we never return to those times again.

memish 5y ago
Free speech is a core liberal value. I can't believe how many people are confused about this. [Free speech and the open town square is how we got away from the atrocities you outline. There is no societal progress without free speech, which twitter is actively clamping down on. It's regressive and taking us back to when dominant ideas couldn't be challenged.]
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  Agreed, but what's actually unbelievable is that people seem to not realize that it goes both ways, and I'm just as free to shame and ridicule someone for their speech as they are to express their shitty little racist ideas. [No, we got away from the practices I mentioned above through discussion that did not take place in a "public" town square. Basically anywhere else, but certainly not the "public" town square. One reason, among many, is that a "town square" is not nearly as ubiquitous as you seem to believe, historically. Dominant ideas can easily and are frequently challenged on Twitter and in modern discourse generally, it's just not tolerant of the racist, awful ideas that some might want to discuss. It's not going to lead to progress to continue to discuss how one race is superior to another, for example, and yet that's all some groups seem to want to talk about.]
  - bko 5y ago
    Sure. No one is arguing you shouldn't be able to ridicule someone online (I guess it depends on who you're ridiculing right?). But I don't think you should get banned from the platform for doing so. That's the problem people have with Twitter. Especially since its very inconsistently applied and very out of touch with what the overwhelming majority of the country believes. There's also a cultural aspect that can't really be solved by Twitter, like petitioning someone to be fired for making a gay joke ten years ago.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      Twitter agrees! You are not banned from that platform for ridiculing anyone.
      - bko 5y ago
        Twitter suspended someone for saying "Ok dude..." [0] https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/ok-dude-twitter-suspends-rapper-zuby-for-hateful-tweet-at-transgender-antifa-activist https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/ok-dude-twitter-susp...
        TameAntelope 5y ago
        @ZubyMusic tweeted 44 minutes ago, so no he was not banned.
        stjohnswarts 5y ago
        I guess that the "appeal" was ruled reasonable and zuby made it back? Of course Washington Examiner will never follow up on the matter as they're well known, like Fox, to print front page knee jerks and way-back-page retractions.
        tekknik 5y ago
  - splitstud 5y ago
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Freedom of association is also a core liberal value.
coldtea 5y ago
>That's where slaves were sold, that's where gay men were stoned, that's where people were hanged for all manner of terrible reason that had nothing whatsoever to do with justice. That's also how you get slaves fred, labour laws passed, and so on. Most revolutions started on public squares (and public cafes, and such). And further progress was created by open dialogue, in books and other discourse spaces. Which people thinking like the above wanted to stiffle. And, no, the "public square" wasn't what brought slavery for example. It was more the discussion in the "polite"/"good" upper echelons of society, for their own benefit. The same people who run and profited from that racket. And the same, good, rich and aspiration class people who wrote diatribes against gays, or intented scientific racism, eugenics, and other such novelties. In other words, by the same kind of classes who today dictate what the unwashed masses should talk about and what not, now.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  I would love to hear what you think would happen to you if you had openly discussed the equality of man irrespective of race in the "public" town square in a southern plantation town in the 1850s. I would further love to hear what you think would happen if you did that while committing the "crime" of being black. Getting made fun of on Twitter seems like a substantially less severe consequence than what would happen if you proposed radical ideas in the "public town square" throughout history.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - coldtea 5y ago
    >I would love to hear what you think would happen to you if you had openly discussed the equality of man irrespective of race in the "public" town square in a southern plantation town in the 1850s. I would love to hear how you think the idea of giving up slavery was discussed and eventually won over in the North itself (who kept slavery well after the revolution). I would also love to know why you think the public square means addressing everybody (like giving a lecture or declaring some platform), as opposed different people being able to discuss things with others in a public space. >I would further love to hear what you think would happen if you did that while committing the "crime" of being black. The same thing that would happen if you commited what is considered a crime against today's order on a modern public space. >Getting made fun of on Twitter seems like a substantially less severe consequence than what would happen if you proposed radical ideas in the "public town square" throughout history. That's only because 99.999% of it is of less consequence - compared to people discussing the abolition of slavery or setting up a revolution back then. Try something that the current establishment considers threatening and equivalent to the above, and see how far you stay (a) on Twitter (b) in a job, (c) out of jail.

memish 5y ago

Free speech is a core liberal value. I can't believe how many people are confused about this. [Free speech and the open town square is how we got away from the atrocities you outline. There is no societal progress without free speech, which twitter is actively clamping down on. It's regressive and taking us back to when dominant ideas couldn't be challenged.]

TameAntelope 5y ago
Agreed, but what's actually unbelievable is that people seem to not realize that it goes both ways, and I'm just as free to shame and ridicule someone for their speech as they are to express their shitty little racist ideas. [No, we got away from the practices I mentioned above through discussion that did not take place in a "public" town square. Basically anywhere else, but certainly not the "public" town square. One reason, among many, is that a "town square" is not nearly as ubiquitous as you seem to believe, historically. Dominant ideas can easily and are frequently challenged on Twitter and in modern discourse generally, it's just not tolerant of the racist, awful ideas that some might want to discuss. It's not going to lead to progress to continue to discuss how one race is superior to another, for example, and yet that's all some groups seem to want to talk about.]
- bko 5y ago
  Sure. No one is arguing you shouldn't be able to ridicule someone online (I guess it depends on who you're ridiculing right?). But I don't think you should get banned from the platform for doing so. That's the problem people have with Twitter. Especially since its very inconsistently applied and very out of touch with what the overwhelming majority of the country believes. There's also a cultural aspect that can't really be solved by Twitter, like petitioning someone to be fired for making a gay joke ten years ago.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    Twitter agrees! You are not banned from that platform for ridiculing anyone.
    - bko 5y ago
      Twitter suspended someone for saying "Ok dude..." [0] https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/ok-dude-twitter-suspends-rapper-zuby-for-hateful-tweet-at-transgender-antifa-activist https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/ok-dude-twitter-susp...
      - TameAntelope 5y ago
        @ZubyMusic tweeted 44 minutes ago, so no he was not banned.
        stjohnswarts 5y ago
        I guess that the "appeal" was ruled reasonable and zuby made it back? Of course Washington Examiner will never follow up on the matter as they're well known, like Fox, to print front page knee jerks and way-back-page retractions.
        tekknik 5y ago
- splitstud 5y ago
ceejayoz 5y ago
Freedom of association is also a core liberal value.

coldtea 5y ago

>That's where slaves were sold, that's where gay men were stoned, that's where people were hanged for all manner of terrible reason that had nothing whatsoever to do with justice. That's also how you get slaves fred, labour laws passed, and so on. Most revolutions started on public squares (and public cafes, and such). And further progress was created by open dialogue, in books and other discourse spaces. Which people thinking like the above wanted to stiffle. And, no, the "public square" wasn't what brought slavery for example. It was more the discussion in the "polite"/"good" upper echelons of society, for their own benefit. The same people who run and profited from that racket. And the same, good, rich and aspiration class people who wrote diatribes against gays, or intented scientific racism, eugenics, and other such novelties. In other words, by the same kind of classes who today dictate what the unwashed masses should talk about and what not, now.

TameAntelope 5y ago
I would love to hear what you think would happen to you if you had openly discussed the equality of man irrespective of race in the "public" town square in a southern plantation town in the 1850s. I would further love to hear what you think would happen if you did that while committing the "crime" of being black. Getting made fun of on Twitter seems like a substantially less severe consequence than what would happen if you proposed radical ideas in the "public town square" throughout history.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- coldtea 5y ago
  >I would love to hear what you think would happen to you if you had openly discussed the equality of man irrespective of race in the "public" town square in a southern plantation town in the 1850s. I would love to hear how you think the idea of giving up slavery was discussed and eventually won over in the North itself (who kept slavery well after the revolution). I would also love to know why you think the public square means addressing everybody (like giving a lecture or declaring some platform), as opposed different people being able to discuss things with others in a public space. >I would further love to hear what you think would happen if you did that while committing the "crime" of being black. The same thing that would happen if you commited what is considered a crime against today's order on a modern public space. >Getting made fun of on Twitter seems like a substantially less severe consequence than what would happen if you proposed radical ideas in the "public town square" throughout history. That's only because 99.999% of it is of less consequence - compared to people discussing the abolition of slavery or setting up a revolution back then. Try something that the current establishment considers threatening and equivalent to the above, and see how far you stay (a) on Twitter (b) in a job, (c) out of jail.