6 ms·

> I know that new "open" laptops are still available, but most of them--the System76's, the Purisms, etc.--are overpriced in my opinion. He understands the val

> I know that new "open" laptops are still available, but most of them--the System76's, the Purisms, etc.--are overpriced in my opinion. He understands the value of these open devices, but isn't willing to pay more for something he values more.

vinceguidry 5y ago
I upvoted for the sentiment, but a lot of the extra cost, unfortunately, isn't very well-justified. I have both a 1st gen System76 Galago Pro and a Purism Librem laptop, and I even bought a System76 Thelio desktop machine, to find out that they were making terrible design decisions that sorely impact usability. The Galago Pro should never have been released imo, that 1st gen machine's just that bad, and my Purism laptop doesn't even work anymore due to poor build quality making the power connector break off of the motherboard. Laptops are terrible compromises all-around, so I thought I was out of the woods when I got my Thelio. Sadly no, the gorgeous case's power button connector is the jankiest setup I've ever seen. I ended up taking it apart and now the power button dangles out of the hole it was set in, I wound up building a second machine for my daily driver and use that one as a server. I wish them the best of luck, and I really hope Purism's phone is good enough to replace my iPhone 7, but they're not getting any more of my money for the time being.
- kube-system 5y ago
  The justification for the cost is lower volume. There are big fixed costs associated with bringing hardware to market. If you sell 100x as many units as your competitors, you can spend more on R&D, under cut your competitors prices, and make more money. Products targeted at niche markets are at a cost disadvantage inherently.
  - joshspankit 5y ago
    Also: in some cases the makers of ‘secure laptops’ are playing an entirely different game to lower costs. From economies of scale (in every stage of the pipeline) to deals with advertisers and parts vendors, bringing a new laptop to market with none of those strings is a much more challenging undertaking than I think many of us (including me) give them credit for.
  - vinceguidry 5y ago
    Except if they didn't make usability / design compromises then there would be much less R&D needed and they could take that money as additional profit for the next gen. I have no problem paying more for a more niche system. What I don't want to encourage is adding useless crap onto the machine in an effort to justify the extra $$$. System76 is a worse offender in this regard than Purism, my problem with Purism was a build quality issue, which is understandable. I still wish they'd have make it more rugged and less pretty, but at least there weren't any glaring design issues.
  - paulmd 5y ago
    > The justification for the cost is lower volume. There are big fixed costs associated with bringing hardware to market. System76 isn't bringing hardware to market - these are rebranded Clevo and Sager systems. Galaga Pro for example is a Clevo NV41MB-D. https://www.reddit.com/r/System76/comments/k8pnxn/i_think_i_found_the_galago_pro_5_clevo_chassis/ https://www.reddit.com/r/System76/comments/k8pnxn/i_think_i_... System 76's value-add is in the software, not the hardware. AFAIK there is actually nothing stopping you from buying the OEM systems and running the System 76 software on them actually. Of course it's true there's not zero cost running a hardware-based business but their "big fixed costs" are much smaller than, say, Minisforum or the other boutique mini-PC companies. They are just putting in an order to Clevo or Sager and loading their own custom Linux image.
    - mempko 5y ago
      Their other value add is customer support which is fantastic.
Gollapalli 5y ago
The MNT Reform has the potential to be the laptop we all want, but speed is an issue. The cost relative to speed is high. I think the other laptops mentioned are probably better in this regard, but I think they still live on the same supply chain that is incentivized to produce unserviceable, overly thin, borderline thin-client machines.
Steltek 5y ago
I'm waiting for a System76 laptop with AMD graphics, no numpad(!), and not a 1080p screen. It's hard to talk about price when it doesn't exist.
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  Same! ASUS has some coming out but it feels like it's always "soon". We need to move beyond 1080 on laptops.

vinceguidry 5y ago

I upvoted for the sentiment, but a lot of the extra cost, unfortunately, isn't very well-justified. I have both a 1st gen System76 Galago Pro and a Purism Librem laptop, and I even bought a System76 Thelio desktop machine, to find out that they were making terrible design decisions that sorely impact usability. The Galago Pro should never have been released imo, that 1st gen machine's just that bad, and my Purism laptop doesn't even work anymore due to poor build quality making the power connector break off of the motherboard. Laptops are terrible compromises all-around, so I thought I was out of the woods when I got my Thelio. Sadly no, the gorgeous case's power button connector is the jankiest setup I've ever seen. I ended up taking it apart and now the power button dangles out of the hole it was set in, I wound up building a second machine for my daily driver and use that one as a server. I wish them the best of luck, and I really hope Purism's phone is good enough to replace my iPhone 7, but they're not getting any more of my money for the time being.

kube-system 5y ago
The justification for the cost is lower volume. There are big fixed costs associated with bringing hardware to market. If you sell 100x as many units as your competitors, you can spend more on R&D, under cut your competitors prices, and make more money. Products targeted at niche markets are at a cost disadvantage inherently.
- joshspankit 5y ago
  Also: in some cases the makers of ‘secure laptops’ are playing an entirely different game to lower costs. From economies of scale (in every stage of the pipeline) to deals with advertisers and parts vendors, bringing a new laptop to market with none of those strings is a much more challenging undertaking than I think many of us (including me) give them credit for.
- vinceguidry 5y ago
  Except if they didn't make usability / design compromises then there would be much less R&D needed and they could take that money as additional profit for the next gen. I have no problem paying more for a more niche system. What I don't want to encourage is adding useless crap onto the machine in an effort to justify the extra $$$. System76 is a worse offender in this regard than Purism, my problem with Purism was a build quality issue, which is understandable. I still wish they'd have make it more rugged and less pretty, but at least there weren't any glaring design issues.
- paulmd 5y ago
  > The justification for the cost is lower volume. There are big fixed costs associated with bringing hardware to market. System76 isn't bringing hardware to market - these are rebranded Clevo and Sager systems. Galaga Pro for example is a Clevo NV41MB-D. https://www.reddit.com/r/System76/comments/k8pnxn/i_think_i_found_the_galago_pro_5_clevo_chassis/ https://www.reddit.com/r/System76/comments/k8pnxn/i_think_i_... System 76's value-add is in the software, not the hardware. AFAIK there is actually nothing stopping you from buying the OEM systems and running the System 76 software on them actually. Of course it's true there's not zero cost running a hardware-based business but their "big fixed costs" are much smaller than, say, Minisforum or the other boutique mini-PC companies. They are just putting in an order to Clevo or Sager and loading their own custom Linux image.
  - mempko 5y ago
    Their other value add is customer support which is fantastic.

Gollapalli 5y ago

The MNT Reform has the potential to be the laptop we all want, but speed is an issue. The cost relative to speed is high. I think the other laptops mentioned are probably better in this regard, but I think they still live on the same supply chain that is incentivized to produce unserviceable, overly thin, borderline thin-client machines.

Steltek 5y ago

I'm waiting for a System76 laptop with AMD graphics, no numpad(!), and not a 1080p screen. It's hard to talk about price when it doesn't exist.

unethical_ban 5y ago
Same! ASUS has some coming out but it feels like it's always "soon". We need to move beyond 1080 on laptops.