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Macros are a double edged sword. Their advantages also drags in some disadvantages. If they were only advantageous, they would have flown into mainstream langua

by jlouis 18y ago

Macros are a double edged sword. Their advantages also drags in some disadvantages. If they were only advantageous, they would have flown into mainstream languages long ago(in the full Lisp-sense where the macro is a lisp program). But they have not. This can be due to multiple reasons: their disadvantages outweigh the advantages or that the effort of getting them into the language simply drags so many other undesirable things with it. Perhaps the advantage of a macro is perceived to be so small compared to e.g., function composition and higher order functions, that it is left out of the language.

cia_plant 18y ago
Macros haven't flown into mainstream languages, but they've been smuggled in through the back door. C++ templates were not intended to be as useful as they are, but now many of the most powerful C++ libraries use templates as a compile-time metalanguage. Java library developers have also discovered the advantages of the transformation of data into runtime code - except they use XML as the data medium instead of s-expressions, and they use Java reflection to translate the XML instead of using "read" to get a Lisp object. Ruby and Javascript library authors use the metaprogramming capabilities of their respective languages in combination with XML or JSON or YAML data. Look at ruby on rails, or at jquery.
dlweinreb 18y ago
I disagree about that. It's very, very hard to add Lisp-style macros to something like C or Java. The best attempt to do it for Java is Jonathan Bachrach's Java Syntactic Extender, but as far as I know nobody has built any software with it. It's just too hard to use. Until you have read a clear description (e.g. Seibel) or had some experience, it's hard to see what macros are really all about. Lisp macros are extremely important, powerful, and beneficial. Space does not permit me to go into the full explanation; see Peter Siebel's book and the great lecture he gave at Google, available on the web. Macros allowed us to add object-oriented programming to Common Lisp. CLOS (the Common Lisp Object System) fits in very smoothly into the Common Lisp language, with a nice, clear syntax and very powerful semantics. At work, we have built an object-relational mapping system that, similarly, would be impractical (ugly and verbose to the point of unusability) without macros.
- jlouis 18y ago
  I weren't clear enough, sorry. Yes, it is extremely hard to add lisp-style macros to C or Java because they have no s-expression structure you can work on. And they do not want an s-expression structure because it is too alien for those programmers. Thus, they perceive that macros are not worth the effort. I think macros are left out of so many languages because people do not know how to incorporate them while retaining other desirable properties of the language (type safety for instance). Also, macros are not the only way to build ORM systems. Python does the same with metaclassing as an example. But we can agree on that trying to map it into a statically typed language with reflection/AOP as Java did is doomed to fail I think ;) I am not trying to say that macros are useless. I am trying to say that some languages leave them out on purpose. Many problems on which macros look nice can be solved with a little extra thought on representation. But then again, many can not. I see the discussion of macros/no-macros a bit like the discussion on static/dynamic typing. With static typing, we know we are leaving some valid programs outside the gates of the static world. But we think that this loss is negligible compared to the benefits a static check gives us. Yet, some people oppose this viewpoint and wants the valid programs as well, because they perceive the benefits of the static typing to the negligible. Both approaches are valid, but it currently looks like it is hard to get all of the cake in one munch.

by jlouis 18y ago

cia_plant 18y ago

Macros haven't flown into mainstream languages, but they've been smuggled in through the back door. C++ templates were not intended to be as useful as they are, but now many of the most powerful C++ libraries use templates as a compile-time metalanguage. Java library developers have also discovered the advantages of the transformation of data into runtime code - except they use XML as the data medium instead of s-expressions, and they use Java reflection to translate the XML instead of using "read" to get a Lisp object. Ruby and Javascript library authors use the metaprogramming capabilities of their respective languages in combination with XML or JSON or YAML data. Look at ruby on rails, or at jquery.

dlweinreb 18y ago

I disagree about that. It's very, very hard to add Lisp-style macros to something like C or Java. The best attempt to do it for Java is Jonathan Bachrach's Java Syntactic Extender, but as far as I know nobody has built any software with it. It's just too hard to use. Until you have read a clear description (e.g. Seibel) or had some experience, it's hard to see what macros are really all about. Lisp macros are extremely important, powerful, and beneficial. Space does not permit me to go into the full explanation; see Peter Siebel's book and the great lecture he gave at Google, available on the web. Macros allowed us to add object-oriented programming to Common Lisp. CLOS (the Common Lisp Object System) fits in very smoothly into the Common Lisp language, with a nice, clear syntax and very powerful semantics. At work, we have built an object-relational mapping system that, similarly, would be impractical (ugly and verbose to the point of unusability) without macros.

jlouis 18y ago
I weren't clear enough, sorry. Yes, it is extremely hard to add lisp-style macros to C or Java because they have no s-expression structure you can work on. And they do not want an s-expression structure because it is too alien for those programmers. Thus, they perceive that macros are not worth the effort. I think macros are left out of so many languages because people do not know how to incorporate them while retaining other desirable properties of the language (type safety for instance). Also, macros are not the only way to build ORM systems. Python does the same with metaclassing as an example. But we can agree on that trying to map it into a statically typed language with reflection/AOP as Java did is doomed to fail I think ;) I am not trying to say that macros are useless. I am trying to say that some languages leave them out on purpose. Many problems on which macros look nice can be solved with a little extra thought on representation. But then again, many can not. I see the discussion of macros/no-macros a bit like the discussion on static/dynamic typing. With static typing, we know we are leaving some valid programs outside the gates of the static world. But we think that this loss is negligible compared to the benefits a static check gives us. Yet, some people oppose this viewpoint and wants the valid programs as well, because they perceive the benefits of the static typing to the negligible. Both approaches are valid, but it currently looks like it is hard to get all of the cake in one munch.