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> Please don't do this here. What makes you think you can give advices on what people should or shouldn't do here? If you don't need proper investigation to f

> Please don't do this here. What makes you think you can give advices on what people should or shouldn't do here? If you don't need proper investigation to figure out who actually did that - it's your choice. But don't try to censor those who think not like you.

emptysongglass 5y ago
You have a long history of coming to the defense of what is now an international pariah that has lied about the purpose of a troop build up, 200,000 strong which has now senselessly displaced millions and murdered thousands more. Proper investigations will be done and Russia will be brought to justice in front of a court of its peers. Defending this monstrous state with your "concerned" deflections while mothers and children lay raped and dead on the earth of Ukraine is not defensible. Please don't do this here.
- VictorPath 5y ago
  > Proper investigations will be done and Russia will be brought to justice in front of a court of its peers As the US passed a law to invade the Hague in case the ICC ever tries to accuse the US of war crimes, I'm assuming the US is not a "peer". > Defending this monstrous state with your "concerned" deflections while mothers and children lay raped and dead on the earth of Ukraine is not defensible. Please don't do this here. Israel was murdering Palestinian children in the West Bank and Gaza last year, backed by the US. Accounts of that posted here which managed not to be flagged were heavily "defended" with concerned deflections, where are your comments all over those threads to not deflect and do that here? Or the ongoing Saudi massacres of Yemeni, which the US backs and are happening now. Or the US drone attack on children in Kabul last August? When are those war crime trials starting?
  - jesterson 5y ago
    Excellent points, but he seems to be a typical product of mass media. If it's not reiterated on mass media, it doesn't exist. Ignorance is bliss indeed :(
  - emptysongglass 5y ago
    I've called out whataboutism here before and I'll do it again here. It offers no solutions, only deflections and tarpits of inaction. No one is saying any of those atrocities that occurred were defensible, least of all me. But I am deeply concerned by the defense of an imperial power in its twilight that believes invasion in the 21st century is a sound method for solving disputes. Russia is the aggressor here. Apologies are not needed for its behavior or appropriate when Mariupol has been turned into a new Grozny and Odessa is next.
    - AnAmericanPOV64 5y ago
      The "whataboutism" defense has basically become codeword for "how dare you point out our hypocrisy!" Especially for people in South America or the Middle East, why should they care about war crimes in Europe when Europeans/Americans have been committing war crimes or supporting people who do in their regions?
      - emptysongglass 5y ago
        This isn't the topic of discussion of this thread. What do you propose to achieve with this line of questioning? I live in the EU. Most nations of the EU (all?) have quit invading other sovereign nations to solve their disputes, especially overt landgrabs. What exactly do you intend to convey by pointing out hypocrisy here? Do you have a solution to propose? Should we/I stop caring about an aggressive state power at our doorstep because hypocrisy exists?
        AnAmericanPOV64 5y ago
        >This isn't the topic of discussion of this thread. This is true, my intention isn't to derail the topic of the thread. Just pointing out that "whataboutism" is often just a defense for "stop pointing out my hypocrisy". >Most nations of the EU (all?) have quit invading other sovereign nations to solve their disputes, especially overt landgrabs. Unless its in Palestine or Western Sahara? >Do you have a solution to propose? Yes, perhaps if the West wasn't so hypocritical on ignoring its own numerous war crimes, then countries like China/India and entire regions like South America/Middle East would be more willing to support the West in conflicts like Ukraine. Its obviously too late for that now, but something to keep in mind for the future. Its a tangential point, but you can't expect people to help you or care when you refuse to show them the same sympathy.
- jesterson 5y ago
  It's flattering to find you have spent some time going thru my history, although if you have tried to think critically instead of throwing emotional messages, I would consider that to be more useful activity. Proper investigations means independent and not biased, which is clearly not the case for you and those who blame without any evidence, just because media provided a nice picture. Will it ever be the case and will russian forces be there or someone else is to be found. Unfortunately massive campaign on media blaming russia for that hints us the proper investigation will never take place. And lastly - luckily it's not your private space, so please don't behave like you own it. If you enjoy echo-chambers there are plenty of places for that. HN is one of few where people freely express substantiated POV.

emptysongglass 5y ago

You have a long history of coming to the defense of what is now an international pariah that has lied about the purpose of a troop build up, 200,000 strong which has now senselessly displaced millions and murdered thousands more. Proper investigations will be done and Russia will be brought to justice in front of a court of its peers. Defending this monstrous state with your "concerned" deflections while mothers and children lay raped and dead on the earth of Ukraine is not defensible. Please don't do this here.

VictorPath 5y ago
> Proper investigations will be done and Russia will be brought to justice in front of a court of its peers As the US passed a law to invade the Hague in case the ICC ever tries to accuse the US of war crimes, I'm assuming the US is not a "peer". > Defending this monstrous state with your "concerned" deflections while mothers and children lay raped and dead on the earth of Ukraine is not defensible. Please don't do this here. Israel was murdering Palestinian children in the West Bank and Gaza last year, backed by the US. Accounts of that posted here which managed not to be flagged were heavily "defended" with concerned deflections, where are your comments all over those threads to not deflect and do that here? Or the ongoing Saudi massacres of Yemeni, which the US backs and are happening now. Or the US drone attack on children in Kabul last August? When are those war crime trials starting?
- jesterson 5y ago
  Excellent points, but he seems to be a typical product of mass media. If it's not reiterated on mass media, it doesn't exist. Ignorance is bliss indeed :(
- emptysongglass 5y ago
  I've called out whataboutism here before and I'll do it again here. It offers no solutions, only deflections and tarpits of inaction. No one is saying any of those atrocities that occurred were defensible, least of all me. But I am deeply concerned by the defense of an imperial power in its twilight that believes invasion in the 21st century is a sound method for solving disputes. Russia is the aggressor here. Apologies are not needed for its behavior or appropriate when Mariupol has been turned into a new Grozny and Odessa is next.
  - AnAmericanPOV64 5y ago
    The "whataboutism" defense has basically become codeword for "how dare you point out our hypocrisy!" Especially for people in South America or the Middle East, why should they care about war crimes in Europe when Europeans/Americans have been committing war crimes or supporting people who do in their regions?
    - emptysongglass 5y ago
      This isn't the topic of discussion of this thread. What do you propose to achieve with this line of questioning? I live in the EU. Most nations of the EU (all?) have quit invading other sovereign nations to solve their disputes, especially overt landgrabs. What exactly do you intend to convey by pointing out hypocrisy here? Do you have a solution to propose? Should we/I stop caring about an aggressive state power at our doorstep because hypocrisy exists?
      - AnAmericanPOV64 5y ago
        >This isn't the topic of discussion of this thread. This is true, my intention isn't to derail the topic of the thread. Just pointing out that "whataboutism" is often just a defense for "stop pointing out my hypocrisy". >Most nations of the EU (all?) have quit invading other sovereign nations to solve their disputes, especially overt landgrabs. Unless its in Palestine or Western Sahara? >Do you have a solution to propose? Yes, perhaps if the West wasn't so hypocritical on ignoring its own numerous war crimes, then countries like China/India and entire regions like South America/Middle East would be more willing to support the West in conflicts like Ukraine. Its obviously too late for that now, but something to keep in mind for the future. Its a tangential point, but you can't expect people to help you or care when you refuse to show them the same sympathy.
jesterson 5y ago
It's flattering to find you have spent some time going thru my history, although if you have tried to think critically instead of throwing emotional messages, I would consider that to be more useful activity. Proper investigations means independent and not biased, which is clearly not the case for you and those who blame without any evidence, just because media provided a nice picture. Will it ever be the case and will russian forces be there or someone else is to be found. Unfortunately massive campaign on media blaming russia for that hints us the proper investigation will never take place. And lastly - luckily it's not your private space, so please don't behave like you own it. If you enjoy echo-chambers there are plenty of places for that. HN is one of few where people freely express substantiated POV.