6 ms·

> sidenote: If anyone out there is an SAP specialist ns.nl looks like a pretty great place to work: 36hr week, 5 weeks vacation, pension, and free unlimited 2nd

by rgj 4y ago

> sidenote: If anyone out there is an SAP specialist ns.nl looks like a pretty great place to work: 36hr week, 5 weeks vacation, pension, and free unlimited 2nd class + low cost 1st class train travel. Those are pretty standard terms here in .NL. 36 hours is considered fulltime by most employers, including government and semi-government. Pension is offered almost everywhere and at least 4 weeks vacation is the legal minimum. Maybe except for the _unlimited_ train travel but most employers do offer free train travel between home and work. This also means that if an IT system goes down on a Sunday, a lot of employees won’t even pick up the phone until Monday 9 AM.

t0mas88 4y ago
Indeed pretty standard, even in non-government it would be 40 hours but all other terms the same and most likely a company car + private use of it instead of the train. And I'm also sure they have a significant on-call setup of the IT teams for any out of office hours issues, just like every other large 24x7 kind of organization.
- rgj 4y ago
  Of course they do. But the real specialists will most likely have been able to keep themselves out of the on call schedule.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>36 hours is considered fulltime by most employers How standard is that in the private sector or non former state owned enterprises? I haven't looked at the NL market in a while but most tech jobs I saw back then were 40h/week.
- AndyMcConachie 4y ago
  Most private sector tech jobs in NL are 40 hours per week. But many private sector jobs are also flexible in ways that I've never seen in the USA. For example, allowing an employee to work 40 hours in 4 days instead of 5.
  - dtech 4y ago
    40 hours in 4 days - 4x10 - is unusual, but 4x9 for 90% part-time is common.
- rgj 4y ago
  It's hard to find actual numbers. Tech jobs, smaller companies ("MKB") and work in the agricultural sector tend to have a higher percentage of 40 hour work weeks than other sectors. Only 3% of the people in the Netherlands work 41 hours per week or more. The average Dutchman works 31 hours per week. (source https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/08/meer-dan-de-helft-werkt-voltijds https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/08/meer-dan-de-helft-we...)
- yourusername 4y ago
  Not very standard but if you want to work 36 or 32 hours that is possible almost everywhere (you'll just get 10-20% less pay).
- fjfaase 4y ago
  I have been working between 30 and 24 hours as a Senior Software Developer in the past 20 years. I have had several colleagues who work a similar amount of hours. I have been telling employers that I am only productive for about six hours per workng day on average and that never has been a deal breaker. The number of productive hours does vary from day to day, but I know that I push myself beyond that limit, I will run in trouble after some months. I have heard about studies that the average employee is only really productive for about two or three hours per day. With me working six hours per day, I might just as productive as someone being eight hours in the office.
rocqua 4y ago
Note that a pension is essentially a legal requirement. There might be ways around this, but it would be really hard to offer employment without offering a pension in NL.
- consp 4y ago
  Only AOW (state pension) is a requirement by law and for full-time salaried employees there is no way around that. Private pension (what is meant here) is not required by law though financially very lucrative compared to doing it yourself. It can be made required by making a CAO (collective bargaining agreement) "algemeen bindend" for all employees in a sector/company but this is not always the case in all sectors (e.g. IT). Note that this is way more complex and this is just a simplification.
  - rocqua 4y ago
    Really, I thought pensions were required. I guess it's just so fiscally attractive that essentially every employer offers it. Combined with the pervasiveness of CAOs, especially among the more stingy sectors.
roeles 4y ago
I worked about a year at NS as a consultant. I wrote python software that broadcasts the audio messages in the passenger compartment, steers the outside lcd screens and such. It is a great place to work. A nice atmosphere, good coffee and they embraced change (in this case Scaled Agile) better than most places I have seen. They are often listed as top-5 best places to work and I can see why.

by rgj 4y ago

t0mas88 4y ago

Indeed pretty standard, even in non-government it would be 40 hours but all other terms the same and most likely a company car + private use of it instead of the train. And I'm also sure they have a significant on-call setup of the IT teams for any out of office hours issues, just like every other large 24x7 kind of organization.

rgj 4y ago
Of course they do. But the real specialists will most likely have been able to keep themselves out of the on call schedule.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

>36 hours is considered fulltime by most employers How standard is that in the private sector or non former state owned enterprises? I haven't looked at the NL market in a while but most tech jobs I saw back then were 40h/week.

AndyMcConachie 4y ago
Most private sector tech jobs in NL are 40 hours per week. But many private sector jobs are also flexible in ways that I've never seen in the USA. For example, allowing an employee to work 40 hours in 4 days instead of 5.
- dtech 4y ago
  40 hours in 4 days - 4x10 - is unusual, but 4x9 for 90% part-time is common.
rgj 4y ago
It's hard to find actual numbers. Tech jobs, smaller companies ("MKB") and work in the agricultural sector tend to have a higher percentage of 40 hour work weeks than other sectors. Only 3% of the people in the Netherlands work 41 hours per week or more. The average Dutchman works 31 hours per week. (source https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/08/meer-dan-de-helft-werkt-voltijds https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/08/meer-dan-de-helft-we...)
yourusername 4y ago
Not very standard but if you want to work 36 or 32 hours that is possible almost everywhere (you'll just get 10-20% less pay).
fjfaase 4y ago
I have been working between 30 and 24 hours as a Senior Software Developer in the past 20 years. I have had several colleagues who work a similar amount of hours. I have been telling employers that I am only productive for about six hours per workng day on average and that never has been a deal breaker. The number of productive hours does vary from day to day, but I know that I push myself beyond that limit, I will run in trouble after some months. I have heard about studies that the average employee is only really productive for about two or three hours per day. With me working six hours per day, I might just as productive as someone being eight hours in the office.

rocqua 4y ago

Note that a pension is essentially a legal requirement. There might be ways around this, but it would be really hard to offer employment without offering a pension in NL.

consp 4y ago
Only AOW (state pension) is a requirement by law and for full-time salaried employees there is no way around that. Private pension (what is meant here) is not required by law though financially very lucrative compared to doing it yourself. It can be made required by making a CAO (collective bargaining agreement) "algemeen bindend" for all employees in a sector/company but this is not always the case in all sectors (e.g. IT). Note that this is way more complex and this is just a simplification.
- rocqua 4y ago
  Really, I thought pensions were required. I guess it's just so fiscally attractive that essentially every employer offers it. Combined with the pervasiveness of CAOs, especially among the more stingy sectors.

roeles 4y ago

I worked about a year at NS as a consultant. I wrote python software that broadcasts the audio messages in the passenger compartment, steers the outside lcd screens and such. It is a great place to work. A nice atmosphere, good coffee and they embraced change (in this case Scaled Agile) better than most places I have seen. They are often listed as top-5 best places to work and I can see why.