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I'd really like to know how much Microsoft's behavior with recent Windows versions pays off. Specifically bundling lots of unwanted apps, forcing Edge and Defen

I'd really like to know how much Microsoft's behavior with recent Windows versions pays off. Specifically bundling lots of unwanted apps, forcing Edge and Defender down people's throats, removing basic UI customization features, etc. The fact that they are still doing this today suggests that they get something out of these decisions. Or at least they think so. I can only imagine that the part of customers being alienated this way is/appears insignificant to them. I still believe Microsoft has the necessary resources to put out a truly great OS, but it looks like they don't want to.

odonnellryan 5y ago
Gotta have some bad versions of windows so when we get an ok version we think it is good! It isn't like you're going to use Linux ;)
- abdulmuhaimin 5y ago
  theres MacOS. Thats the real immediate threat of Windows 11. And honestly with recent development of Apple's hardware, and gaming on Linux, Microsoft should be worried. Windows 11 feels like Microsoft make a step forward and 2 steps backward
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    In many countries there isn't, at least not at the same 300 euro price range many families manage to get by. Since Windows XP that we are going to have everyone switch in droves to Linux, because Microsoft did X. What gaming, running Windows games on Wine and Proton, because studios can't still be bothered to this day, even when they are already using POSIX like (PS/Switch/iOS) or Linux based OSes (Android/Stadia) ?
    - w4rh4wk5 5y ago
      Regarding gaming: in fact a lot of the big studios don't really care about PC as a platform in general, not specifically about Windows. See Elden Ring for example, it has a PC 'port' that is about the bare minimum you can get by nowadays (locked at 60, no ultrawide support, performance issues on non-high-end systems etc.). And that for a AAA title. One would think that a modern game engine takes care of all the issues, allowing a studio to port their game from console to PC with the click of button. But reality has shown that this is not the case. While modern consoles and cloud service (like Google Stadia) may use POSIX like OSes under the hood, you'd still be using a proprietary API to interface with the platform. Porting a game from PlayStation or Nintendo Switch to Linux is not easier than porting it over from Windows. I've worked on a Google Stadia port in the past and are currently working a Nintendo Switch port, along with a PC port. If I had to port to native Linux, without Wine/Proton and DXVK, I'd take the PC version as basis.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        Right, because consoles provide a known target, and there is more to do a port than clicking on export button. Middleware hasn't killed the porting business exactly because of that.
supernovae 5y ago
Windows defender is better than almost evrything out there. Edge is as annoying as chrome or safari is on their respective os’s and no basic ui stuff has really been removed that tons of freeware and addons didn’t allow one to customize and they’re releasing a new update to continue to refine the UX/UI
- w4rh4wk5 5y ago
  Defender may be better but I still don't like that you can't completely disabled it without breaking other parts of the system, like Windows Store. Edge itself, as a browser, might only be equally annoying as Chrome, but my point is about Microsoft forcing you to use it. Using third-party applications to restore functionality is not something we should consider acceptable. I am using Windows 11 on a Microsoft Surface Go 3 and the UI is big issue at the moment. Some of the issues have been around a while now and are not entirely related to the Surface Go 3: - Using 125% DPI scaling causes the right-click menu to be incorrectly sized, showing a scrollbar. If you scroll down, explorer crashes. [1] - Rotating the Surfaces changes screen brightness. Also happens when attaching the type cover. [2] - If you open too many applications to the point where the taskbar overflows, you cannot access overflowed elements. This easily happens when using the Surface in portrait mode, while having pinned a hand full of applications. [1]: https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/report-an-issue/reproducible-crash-when-scrolling-in-the-desktop-context-menu/td-p/2555272 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/report-an-issue/repro... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=30901634&goto=item%3Fid%3D30900759%2330901634 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=30901634&goto=item%3Fi...
  - supernovae 5y ago
    using 3rd party applications to customize windows is the beauty of windows. i run it on a ryzen5 and surface pro 8 and it’s been great
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  Edge is definitely worse, I was making an Amazon purchase on Edge and it started popping up offers for the same product. The last thing I want is my browser trying to insert itself into my transactions.
jareklupinski 5y ago
the people who voluntarily leave telemetry "on" are probably skewing the results do they use telemetry on who disables telemetry to balance the data :P
- w4rh4wk5 5y ago
  There is no practical way of turning of telemetry completely. Since telemetry is enabled by default, I doubt the portion of users turning it off is significant. I think the bigger problem is that you just can't derive meaningful data from telemetry to make the necessary decisions for improving user experience.
  - m3galinux 5y ago
    Windows 10 Enterprise and group policy to disable telemetry? Agree it's not exactly "practical" though for non-business settings.
kyriakos 5y ago
I think we keep hearing complaints but they come from a vocal minority. I use both Windows 10 and 11 daily and the issues people are describing are exaggerated most of the time. Not saying they don't exist but personally other than the task bar regressions everything else is actually a lot more polished in 11 than 10. Windows defender is pretty good and edge is a decent browser but the same way Windows annoys you to use it Google uses its services to force chrome on you (for example I get a popup on Gmail every time I open it asking me to switch to chrome no matter how many times I dismiss it, I assume Firefox gets the same). So maybe as users we got used to the idea of the big corporations trying to fight for our attention.
- desmondl 5y ago
  I somewhat agree, because as an end user all I had to do is disable the bundled apps (teams, etc) and switch the default browser to firefox. I agree with the criticism though, it really leaves a bad taste in my mouth to see all the extra prompts encouraging me to keep Edge, and the social media links (instagram, tiktok) in my start menu. But for someone who experienced bloatware, this stuff was pretty easy to remove / change. The main difference is that this "bloatware" came directly from Microsoft and not third parties.

odonnellryan 5y ago

Gotta have some bad versions of windows so when we get an ok version we think it is good! It isn't like you're going to use Linux ;)

abdulmuhaimin 5y ago
theres MacOS. Thats the real immediate threat of Windows 11. And honestly with recent development of Apple's hardware, and gaming on Linux, Microsoft should be worried. Windows 11 feels like Microsoft make a step forward and 2 steps backward
- pjmlp 5y ago
  In many countries there isn't, at least not at the same 300 euro price range many families manage to get by. Since Windows XP that we are going to have everyone switch in droves to Linux, because Microsoft did X. What gaming, running Windows games on Wine and Proton, because studios can't still be bothered to this day, even when they are already using POSIX like (PS/Switch/iOS) or Linux based OSes (Android/Stadia) ?
  - w4rh4wk5 5y ago
    Regarding gaming: in fact a lot of the big studios don't really care about PC as a platform in general, not specifically about Windows. See Elden Ring for example, it has a PC 'port' that is about the bare minimum you can get by nowadays (locked at 60, no ultrawide support, performance issues on non-high-end systems etc.). And that for a AAA title. One would think that a modern game engine takes care of all the issues, allowing a studio to port their game from console to PC with the click of button. But reality has shown that this is not the case. While modern consoles and cloud service (like Google Stadia) may use POSIX like OSes under the hood, you'd still be using a proprietary API to interface with the platform. Porting a game from PlayStation or Nintendo Switch to Linux is not easier than porting it over from Windows. I've worked on a Google Stadia port in the past and are currently working a Nintendo Switch port, along with a PC port. If I had to port to native Linux, without Wine/Proton and DXVK, I'd take the PC version as basis.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Right, because consoles provide a known target, and there is more to do a port than clicking on export button. Middleware hasn't killed the porting business exactly because of that.

supernovae 5y ago

Windows defender is better than almost evrything out there. Edge is as annoying as chrome or safari is on their respective os’s and no basic ui stuff has really been removed that tons of freeware and addons didn’t allow one to customize and they’re releasing a new update to continue to refine the UX/UI

w4rh4wk5 5y ago
Defender may be better but I still don't like that you can't completely disabled it without breaking other parts of the system, like Windows Store. Edge itself, as a browser, might only be equally annoying as Chrome, but my point is about Microsoft forcing you to use it. Using third-party applications to restore functionality is not something we should consider acceptable. I am using Windows 11 on a Microsoft Surface Go 3 and the UI is big issue at the moment. Some of the issues have been around a while now and are not entirely related to the Surface Go 3: - Using 125% DPI scaling causes the right-click menu to be incorrectly sized, showing a scrollbar. If you scroll down, explorer crashes. [1] - Rotating the Surfaces changes screen brightness. Also happens when attaching the type cover. [2] - If you open too many applications to the point where the taskbar overflows, you cannot access overflowed elements. This easily happens when using the Surface in portrait mode, while having pinned a hand full of applications. [1]: https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/report-an-issue/reproducible-crash-when-scrolling-in-the-desktop-context-menu/td-p/2555272 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/report-an-issue/repro... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=30901634&goto=item%3Fid%3D30900759%2330901634 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=30901634&goto=item%3Fi...
- supernovae 5y ago
  using 3rd party applications to customize windows is the beauty of windows. i run it on a ryzen5 and surface pro 8 and it’s been great
tonyedgecombe 5y ago
Edge is definitely worse, I was making an Amazon purchase on Edge and it started popping up offers for the same product. The last thing I want is my browser trying to insert itself into my transactions.

jareklupinski 5y ago

the people who voluntarily leave telemetry "on" are probably skewing the results do they use telemetry on who disables telemetry to balance the data :P

w4rh4wk5 5y ago
There is no practical way of turning of telemetry completely. Since telemetry is enabled by default, I doubt the portion of users turning it off is significant. I think the bigger problem is that you just can't derive meaningful data from telemetry to make the necessary decisions for improving user experience.
- m3galinux 5y ago
  Windows 10 Enterprise and group policy to disable telemetry? Agree it's not exactly "practical" though for non-business settings.

kyriakos 5y ago

I think we keep hearing complaints but they come from a vocal minority. I use both Windows 10 and 11 daily and the issues people are describing are exaggerated most of the time. Not saying they don't exist but personally other than the task bar regressions everything else is actually a lot more polished in 11 than 10. Windows defender is pretty good and edge is a decent browser but the same way Windows annoys you to use it Google uses its services to force chrome on you (for example I get a popup on Gmail every time I open it asking me to switch to chrome no matter how many times I dismiss it, I assume Firefox gets the same). So maybe as users we got used to the idea of the big corporations trying to fight for our attention.

desmondl 5y ago
I somewhat agree, because as an end user all I had to do is disable the bundled apps (teams, etc) and switch the default browser to firefox. I agree with the criticism though, it really leaves a bad taste in my mouth to see all the extra prompts encouraging me to keep Edge, and the social media links (instagram, tiktok) in my start menu. But for someone who experienced bloatware, this stuff was pretty easy to remove / change. The main difference is that this "bloatware" came directly from Microsoft and not third parties.