6 ms·

> New Windows 11 Pro installations will require Microsoft account I don’t really understand why this is a problem for you, let alone such a major problem. Take

> New Windows 11 Pro installations will require Microsoft account I don’t really understand why this is a problem for you, let alone such a major problem. Takes two seconds to set up an account. I don’t even use Windows and I already have one!

PeterisP 5y ago
It's perfectly natural to not want to have an account even if it's trivial to make, and even if you already have one, it's a basic privacy desire to refuse to link your computer to this account. It's also a reasonable desire to have your computer local authentication be completely separate any from Microsoft service, ensuring that the events are private and don't even get communicated to Microsoft, much less being able to circumvent local authentication by anyone who is in control of that cloud account.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > it's a basic privacy desire to refuse to link your computer to this account Seems a bit tin-foil in these days. Which is a fine preference for an individual if they’re into that scene, but you can understand why Microsoft doesn’t care about such a tiny proportion of society.
  - AniseAbyss 5y ago
  - quantum_solanum 5y ago
    Almost like Microsoft deliberately helped marginalize the position because it's profitable!
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      How many niche preferences can Microsoft be expected to accommodate? What about people who refuse to use capital letters? Can you use Windows without using capital letters? At some point it's reasonable to design for most people.
      - salawat 5y ago
        Congratulations. You strawmanned. So where does the heap fallacy start kicking in? Because every feature I see delivered seems more tuned for keeping a PM working than actually making the user's life any easier. They gave up every pretense of gaining or humoring "consent" when the implemented Cortana's little "you need to agree to this or, ya know, no windows" bs.
  - Silhouette 5y ago
    Seems a bit tin-foil in these days. These days? Surely these days it is beyond any reasonable doubt that not only were a lot of the tin-foil fashionistas right all along but also the suggested dangers of modern always-connected technology do now actually harm real people in real ways quite often. Just look at the subject of this very discussion. The most disturbing thing is that it's still only a relatively small proportion of society who will actively try to avoid the trap. From my own experience it's not even that the others don't care -- plenty of them are well aware of what is being done to them and they don't like it -- but they think the alternatives are just as bad and they're (reasonably enough) not willing to become digital hermits who are disconnected from normal life just to avoid the likes of Microsoft, Google and Apple.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      > The most disturbing thing is that it's still only a relatively small proportion of society who will actively try to avoid the trap. If people had genuine security concerns why would they be using stock Windows connected directly to the Internet in the first place?
      - AlchemistCamp 5y ago
        Does anyone not have genuine security concerns given how expansive and personal computing has become? We’re not talking about a single app or website. MS is a trillion dollar corporation that controls both the OS and in many cases the hardware layer. The “stock” version has unjustifiable defaults and I quit using Windows myself a few years ago due to exactly the issues people in this thread are complaining about.
        chrisseaton 5y ago
        > We’re not talking about a single app or website. MS is a trillion dollar corporation that controls both the OS and in many cases the hardware layer. Right... so why are people so stubborn on insignificant details like signing up for an account? Microsoft already controls all the software on your system if you're running Windows.
  - RHSeeger 5y ago
    > Seems a bit tin-foil in these days. I find it amazing that you can say such a thing with a serious face. Time after time, we learn that the question isn't "are you paranoid", it's "are you paranoid enough". State actors trying to get your data, hackers trying to get and sell your data, hackers trying to lock down your computer and blackmail you; the list goes on and on. The less "connections" you have to third party services, the safer you are.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      No you've got the wrong end of the stick. The point is that refusing to sign up for a Microsoft account is not going to protect you against this supervision if someone wants to do it.
      - fartcannon 5y ago
        Yeah, the only reasonable defence is not to use a closed OS like Microsoft or OSX.
      - 0des 5y ago
        We can generate power to feed the world off the anger and resentment you're building right now. Partner up with me and we can submit this to YC. I'll give you 50%.
      - RHSeeger 5y ago
        Locking your car door is not going to prevent someone from stealing things in it if they choose do. However, it will make it more difficult for them. Every vector by which we can reduce our vulnerability makes us safer. The goal is to be "safer", not "safe".
fortyseven 5y ago
riidom 5y ago
If your OS installation is bound to an account, and this account is blocked for some reason (which is not too hard to imagine, since on HN there is a post about such things happening twice a week) - what may be the consequences of this?
- johnny22 5y ago
  I've been totally ok with folks getting booted from twitter/social media sites for various reasons. But access to fundamental resources like your own computer or primary email address is a different story. The rules need to be much more stringent there You shouldn't lose your gmail account for being an asshole on youtube, and one shouldn't lose their access to their local computer even for commiting fraud on the MS app store (whatever it's called) One should be able to get banned from gmail if you really break the rules of course, but great care needs to be taken, and the same care (and even more) to make sure you don't lose access to your own computer.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > what may be the consequences of this? Need to get a new computer? Doesn't seem the end of the world for such an unlikely act.
  - akoncius 5y ago
    so.. in that case it means computer belings to MS even if I paid full price?
  - userbinator 5y ago
    Imagine that all your files have been helpfully encrypted --- for your security, of course --- with a key that is bound to that account you can no longer use. I'm not sure if this is possible or the default now on Windows, but it's common for mobile devices.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      You've got backups. Right? And Microsoft already controls all your software if you're running Windows. It could already delete your files if they wanted to.
lucb1e 5y ago
If you speak or care to translate Dutch, you might also be interested in this other article on the same site: https://tweakers.net/reviews/9094/all/account-geblokkeerd-wat-nu.html https://tweakers.net/reviews/9094/all/account-geblokkeerd-wa... Excerpt via Deepl.com: > In all the conversations, it comes out how powerless people feel. You might think that if a company decides to algorithmically block people, there is a support department that can easily reverse mistakes, but that is not true. The department that deals with it is hard to reach. Or, as one customer service rep told BroncoJasperado, "The only team that has access to this is the team that you can reach through the form you already filled out. They are also not reachable by phone and are not located in an office that you can visit." These are paying customers of Microsoft's. Recently also a Dutch judge said MS had to unblock an account because MS could not provide the evidence why it was blocked. Something about american laws and child pornography that was allegedly stored on the account (I can look up the article if you want). In most cases, the judge just rules it's fine because they're a commercial service and they are under no obligation to have you as a customer. You have to sue to even hear as much as "the cause was X" (even if they then can't/won't/don't provide X as evidence). There is little to no recourse. A typical user whose MS account is banned might lose access to: - Their game collection in Xbox / game pass - All documents, pictures, etc. in OneDrive. A family member actually has all documents for their business on OneDrive because there is this history thing (can't permanently remove things by accident), MS guarantees your backups, it's all hands-off and super safe. On my recommendation, they did end up making an offline backup just in case... but I imagine that for every person like that family member, there are also a hundred business owners that would simply lose their business data. - Microsoft Office products bought via 365 - Presumably purchases on the microsoft app store, but last I checked it contained only a few dummy apps and had horrible UX so I don't know how much this is used now - Your email on Outlook.com - And now also their computer? What is this, ransomware? So for me, my Microsoft account being banned (one of probably a dozen by now) would have as impact that I can't play a game anymore that I paid for. I'd be pissed but it gets so much worse if you're a Windows user. And it's not just MS, it's also Google (there the worst I could lose is a Youtube account where I've uploaded a few unpopular videos over the past decade), Facebook, etc.
GekkePrutser 5y ago
The problem isn't the set up process. It's the practice of having to have one. I don't even care if I have a MS account or not but I really don't want it linked to my own computer. It means someone with access to my MS account can access my computer too, and it means Microsoft can collate all my recorded telemetry activity to my identity.

PeterisP 5y ago

It's perfectly natural to not want to have an account even if it's trivial to make, and even if you already have one, it's a basic privacy desire to refuse to link your computer to this account. It's also a reasonable desire to have your computer local authentication be completely separate any from Microsoft service, ensuring that the events are private and don't even get communicated to Microsoft, much less being able to circumvent local authentication by anyone who is in control of that cloud account.

chrisseaton 5y ago
> it's a basic privacy desire to refuse to link your computer to this account Seems a bit tin-foil in these days. Which is a fine preference for an individual if they’re into that scene, but you can understand why Microsoft doesn’t care about such a tiny proportion of society.
- AniseAbyss 5y ago
- quantum_solanum 5y ago
  Almost like Microsoft deliberately helped marginalize the position because it's profitable!
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    How many niche preferences can Microsoft be expected to accommodate? What about people who refuse to use capital letters? Can you use Windows without using capital letters? At some point it's reasonable to design for most people.
    - salawat 5y ago
      Congratulations. You strawmanned. So where does the heap fallacy start kicking in? Because every feature I see delivered seems more tuned for keeping a PM working than actually making the user's life any easier. They gave up every pretense of gaining or humoring "consent" when the implemented Cortana's little "you need to agree to this or, ya know, no windows" bs.
- Silhouette 5y ago
  Seems a bit tin-foil in these days. These days? Surely these days it is beyond any reasonable doubt that not only were a lot of the tin-foil fashionistas right all along but also the suggested dangers of modern always-connected technology do now actually harm real people in real ways quite often. Just look at the subject of this very discussion. The most disturbing thing is that it's still only a relatively small proportion of society who will actively try to avoid the trap. From my own experience it's not even that the others don't care -- plenty of them are well aware of what is being done to them and they don't like it -- but they think the alternatives are just as bad and they're (reasonably enough) not willing to become digital hermits who are disconnected from normal life just to avoid the likes of Microsoft, Google and Apple.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > The most disturbing thing is that it's still only a relatively small proportion of society who will actively try to avoid the trap. If people had genuine security concerns why would they be using stock Windows connected directly to the Internet in the first place?
    - AlchemistCamp 5y ago
      Does anyone not have genuine security concerns given how expansive and personal computing has become? We’re not talking about a single app or website. MS is a trillion dollar corporation that controls both the OS and in many cases the hardware layer. The “stock” version has unjustifiable defaults and I quit using Windows myself a few years ago due to exactly the issues people in this thread are complaining about.
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        > We’re not talking about a single app or website. MS is a trillion dollar corporation that controls both the OS and in many cases the hardware layer. Right... so why are people so stubborn on insignificant details like signing up for an account? Microsoft already controls all the software on your system if you're running Windows.
- RHSeeger 5y ago
  > Seems a bit tin-foil in these days. I find it amazing that you can say such a thing with a serious face. Time after time, we learn that the question isn't "are you paranoid", it's "are you paranoid enough". State actors trying to get your data, hackers trying to get and sell your data, hackers trying to lock down your computer and blackmail you; the list goes on and on. The less "connections" you have to third party services, the safer you are.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    No you've got the wrong end of the stick. The point is that refusing to sign up for a Microsoft account is not going to protect you against this supervision if someone wants to do it.
    - fartcannon 5y ago
      Yeah, the only reasonable defence is not to use a closed OS like Microsoft or OSX.
    - 0des 5y ago
      We can generate power to feed the world off the anger and resentment you're building right now. Partner up with me and we can submit this to YC. I'll give you 50%.
    - RHSeeger 5y ago
      Locking your car door is not going to prevent someone from stealing things in it if they choose do. However, it will make it more difficult for them. Every vector by which we can reduce our vulnerability makes us safer. The goal is to be "safer", not "safe".

fortyseven 5y ago

riidom 5y ago

If your OS installation is bound to an account, and this account is blocked for some reason (which is not too hard to imagine, since on HN there is a post about such things happening twice a week) - what may be the consequences of this?

johnny22 5y ago
I've been totally ok with folks getting booted from twitter/social media sites for various reasons. But access to fundamental resources like your own computer or primary email address is a different story. The rules need to be much more stringent there You shouldn't lose your gmail account for being an asshole on youtube, and one shouldn't lose their access to their local computer even for commiting fraud on the MS app store (whatever it's called) One should be able to get banned from gmail if you really break the rules of course, but great care needs to be taken, and the same care (and even more) to make sure you don't lose access to your own computer.
chrisseaton 5y ago
> what may be the consequences of this? Need to get a new computer? Doesn't seem the end of the world for such an unlikely act.
- akoncius 5y ago
  so.. in that case it means computer belings to MS even if I paid full price?
- userbinator 5y ago
  Imagine that all your files have been helpfully encrypted --- for your security, of course --- with a key that is bound to that account you can no longer use. I'm not sure if this is possible or the default now on Windows, but it's common for mobile devices.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    You've got backups. Right? And Microsoft already controls all your software if you're running Windows. It could already delete your files if they wanted to.

lucb1e 5y ago

If you speak or care to translate Dutch, you might also be interested in this other article on the same site: https://tweakers.net/reviews/9094/all/account-geblokkeerd-wat-nu.html https://tweakers.net/reviews/9094/all/account-geblokkeerd-wa... Excerpt via Deepl.com: > In all the conversations, it comes out how powerless people feel. You might think that if a company decides to algorithmically block people, there is a support department that can easily reverse mistakes, but that is not true. The department that deals with it is hard to reach. Or, as one customer service rep told BroncoJasperado, "The only team that has access to this is the team that you can reach through the form you already filled out. They are also not reachable by phone and are not located in an office that you can visit." These are paying customers of Microsoft's. Recently also a Dutch judge said MS had to unblock an account because MS could not provide the evidence why it was blocked. Something about american laws and child pornography that was allegedly stored on the account (I can look up the article if you want). In most cases, the judge just rules it's fine because they're a commercial service and they are under no obligation to have you as a customer. You have to sue to even hear as much as "the cause was X" (even if they then can't/won't/don't provide X as evidence). There is little to no recourse. A typical user whose MS account is banned might lose access to: - Their game collection in Xbox / game pass - All documents, pictures, etc. in OneDrive. A family member actually has all documents for their business on OneDrive because there is this history thing (can't permanently remove things by accident), MS guarantees your backups, it's all hands-off and super safe. On my recommendation, they did end up making an offline backup just in case... but I imagine that for every person like that family member, there are also a hundred business owners that would simply lose their business data. - Microsoft Office products bought via 365 - Presumably purchases on the microsoft app store, but last I checked it contained only a few dummy apps and had horrible UX so I don't know how much this is used now - Your email on Outlook.com - And now also their computer? What is this, ransomware? So for me, my Microsoft account being banned (one of probably a dozen by now) would have as impact that I can't play a game anymore that I paid for. I'd be pissed but it gets so much worse if you're a Windows user. And it's not just MS, it's also Google (there the worst I could lose is a Youtube account where I've uploaded a few unpopular videos over the past decade), Facebook, etc.

GekkePrutser 5y ago

The problem isn't the set up process. It's the practice of having to have one. I don't even care if I have a MS account or not but I really don't want it linked to my own computer. It means someone with access to my MS account can access my computer too, and it means Microsoft can collate all my recorded telemetry activity to my identity.