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Men and women both make sacrifices when it comes to building a household: working more isn't a privilege. If we're interested in liberating people from gender r

Men and women both make sacrifices when it comes to building a household: working more isn't a privilege. If we're interested in liberating people from gender roles, we have to look at both sides of the equation.

bobthechef 5y ago
The presumption here is that there is something to be liberated from. That men and women are generally better suited toward different aspects of parenting is not an artificial construction. Ideological commitments have taken the place of reason. The result will be that those who do live in a way more aligned with human nature and the specializations each sex entails will out breed those who don't.
- scarmig 5y ago
  The existence of gendered statistical tendencies (some of which, I agree, are rooted in biological realities) doesn't mean that there aren't social structures that penalize people for deviating from those tendencies.
  - misslibby 5y ago
    How is anybody penalized for "deviating from those tendencies" these days?
    - scarmig 5y ago
      E.g. on the woman's side of things, a woman who is messy is judged worse than a man who's equivalently messy would be, which is society actively pushing women toward taking up more household responsibilities. On the man's side of things, a man who is a part time teacher's aid for the sake of work-life flexibility is judged as lazier than a woman doing the same thing would be, which is society actively pushing men toward taking up more work responsibilities.
      - misslibby 5y ago
        Really doubtful about these claims. I know gender studies has generated tons of studies like that, but the quality is low. And in these examples, what would be the repercussions for being perceived as lazy? If he wants a family, the problem for the part time working man would presumably still to be able to provide for a family, which would not be an issue of perception, but of actual shortage of money. If he doesn't want a family, it doesn't matter. The difference is that a woman would never need to earn enough to provide for a family, so the judgement "too lazy to provide for a family" would not apply. And a messy woman's household will be seen and judged by whom, exactly?
misslibby 5y ago
Feminists claim going to work is the privilege, and staying home with children is the chore. The opposite is true. People are being "liberated from gender roles" merely by technological progress: washing machines and the likes making household chores not a fulltime job, office jobs being doable even while pregnant, that sort of thing. The claim that people choose jobs just because of societal expectations is unproven.

bobthechef 5y ago

The presumption here is that there is something to be liberated from. That men and women are generally better suited toward different aspects of parenting is not an artificial construction. Ideological commitments have taken the place of reason. The result will be that those who do live in a way more aligned with human nature and the specializations each sex entails will out breed those who don't.

scarmig 5y ago
The existence of gendered statistical tendencies (some of which, I agree, are rooted in biological realities) doesn't mean that there aren't social structures that penalize people for deviating from those tendencies.
- misslibby 5y ago
  How is anybody penalized for "deviating from those tendencies" these days?
  - scarmig 5y ago
    E.g. on the woman's side of things, a woman who is messy is judged worse than a man who's equivalently messy would be, which is society actively pushing women toward taking up more household responsibilities. On the man's side of things, a man who is a part time teacher's aid for the sake of work-life flexibility is judged as lazier than a woman doing the same thing would be, which is society actively pushing men toward taking up more work responsibilities.
    - misslibby 5y ago
      Really doubtful about these claims. I know gender studies has generated tons of studies like that, but the quality is low. And in these examples, what would be the repercussions for being perceived as lazy? If he wants a family, the problem for the part time working man would presumably still to be able to provide for a family, which would not be an issue of perception, but of actual shortage of money. If he doesn't want a family, it doesn't matter. The difference is that a woman would never need to earn enough to provide for a family, so the judgement "too lazy to provide for a family" would not apply. And a messy woman's household will be seen and judged by whom, exactly?

misslibby 5y ago

Feminists claim going to work is the privilege, and staying home with children is the chore. The opposite is true. People are being "liberated from gender roles" merely by technological progress: washing machines and the likes making household chores not a fulltime job, office jobs being doable even while pregnant, that sort of thing. The claim that people choose jobs just because of societal expectations is unproven.