5 ms·

Another option would be to respect and valorize men who want to focus on things like home life over career success.

by scarmig 5y ago

nopenopenopeno 5y ago
Maybe that would make sense if that was the trend, but it isn’t.
- scarmig 5y ago
  Trends have to start somewhere. But I'm convinced that as long as a male teacher's aide is considered a less desirable prospect than a male CEO, we're going to see shitty gender roles that limit and oppress us.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    One question is why try to start a trend if that isn't what men want? It seems like trying to manipulate desires to meet some other goal. If men want to care for children, then good! We should respect their wishes, but why try to change desires?
    - scarmig 5y ago
      Men do not collectively want things, as collective entities don't have psychological experiences like desire. Individuals of whatever gender exist within incentive landscapes, and they act within those landscapes to result in the best life for them. Many men and women wish they had different incentive landscapes to navigate through. My argument would be that creating a world where men and women can choose their paths according to their individual dispositions without penalty would result in one where more men and women are happy, which is why I'd like to nudge our existing world in that direction.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        If you want freedom and equality of choice, we should focus on breaking down barriers that stop people from doing what they want, not pushing them to do something different. Adding incentives, nudging, and valorizing specific actions puts equality of outcome over equality of choice. We shouldn't push a trend to respect and valorize men who stay home more than those who work. We should push a trend to respect them equally
        scarmig 5y ago
        > We shouldn't push a trend to respect and valorize men who stay home more than those who work. We should push a trend to respect them equally. We are in violent agreement.
        bavell 5y ago
        You don't think they should be respected equally?
        scarmig 5y ago
        "Violent agreement" is a phrasing often used to indicate two people were discussing something and appeared to be on opposite sides but eventually realized they want the same thing =)
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        I think we are in violent agreement this point. Where I thought we differed is providing preferential incentives to men who stay home over those who work.
        notriddle 5y ago
        > Adding incentives, nudging, and valorizing specific actions puts equality of outcome over equality of choice. I'll buy the part about adding incentives. Nudging and valorizing, however, are inevitable aspects of human life. Abolishing heroism is not realistic (and, honestly, it's a pretty mild incentive anyway).
misslibby 5y ago
- scarmig 5y ago
  Men and women both make sacrifices when it comes to building a household: working more isn't a privilege. If we're interested in liberating people from gender roles, we have to look at both sides of the equation.
  - bobthechef 5y ago
    The presumption here is that there is something to be liberated from. That men and women are generally better suited toward different aspects of parenting is not an artificial construction. Ideological commitments have taken the place of reason. The result will be that those who do live in a way more aligned with human nature and the specializations each sex entails will out breed those who don't.
    - scarmig 5y ago
      The existence of gendered statistical tendencies (some of which, I agree, are rooted in biological realities) doesn't mean that there aren't social structures that penalize people for deviating from those tendencies.
      - misslibby 5y ago
        How is anybody penalized for "deviating from those tendencies" these days?
        scarmig 5y ago
        E.g. on the woman's side of things, a woman who is messy is judged worse than a man who's equivalently messy would be, which is society actively pushing women toward taking up more household responsibilities. On the man's side of things, a man who is a part time teacher's aid for the sake of work-life flexibility is judged as lazier than a woman doing the same thing would be, which is society actively pushing men toward taking up more work responsibilities.
bobthechef 5y ago

Another option would be to respect and valorize men who want to focus on things like home life over career success.

nopenopenopeno 5y ago

Maybe that would make sense if that was the trend, but it isn’t.

scarmig 5y ago
Trends have to start somewhere. But I'm convinced that as long as a male teacher's aide is considered a less desirable prospect than a male CEO, we're going to see shitty gender roles that limit and oppress us.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  One question is why try to start a trend if that isn't what men want? It seems like trying to manipulate desires to meet some other goal. If men want to care for children, then good! We should respect their wishes, but why try to change desires?
  - scarmig 5y ago
    Men do not collectively want things, as collective entities don't have psychological experiences like desire. Individuals of whatever gender exist within incentive landscapes, and they act within those landscapes to result in the best life for them. Many men and women wish they had different incentive landscapes to navigate through. My argument would be that creating a world where men and women can choose their paths according to their individual dispositions without penalty would result in one where more men and women are happy, which is why I'd like to nudge our existing world in that direction.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      If you want freedom and equality of choice, we should focus on breaking down barriers that stop people from doing what they want, not pushing them to do something different. Adding incentives, nudging, and valorizing specific actions puts equality of outcome over equality of choice. We shouldn't push a trend to respect and valorize men who stay home more than those who work. We should push a trend to respect them equally
      - scarmig 5y ago
        > We shouldn't push a trend to respect and valorize men who stay home more than those who work. We should push a trend to respect them equally. We are in violent agreement.
        bavell 5y ago
        You don't think they should be respected equally?
        scarmig 5y ago
        "Violent agreement" is a phrasing often used to indicate two people were discussing something and appeared to be on opposite sides but eventually realized they want the same thing =)
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        I think we are in violent agreement this point. Where I thought we differed is providing preferential incentives to men who stay home over those who work.
      - notriddle 5y ago
        > Adding incentives, nudging, and valorizing specific actions puts equality of outcome over equality of choice. I'll buy the part about adding incentives. Nudging and valorizing, however, are inevitable aspects of human life. Abolishing heroism is not realistic (and, honestly, it's a pretty mild incentive anyway).

misslibby 5y ago

scarmig 5y ago
Men and women both make sacrifices when it comes to building a household: working more isn't a privilege. If we're interested in liberating people from gender roles, we have to look at both sides of the equation.
- bobthechef 5y ago
  The presumption here is that there is something to be liberated from. That men and women are generally better suited toward different aspects of parenting is not an artificial construction. Ideological commitments have taken the place of reason. The result will be that those who do live in a way more aligned with human nature and the specializations each sex entails will out breed those who don't.
  - scarmig 5y ago
    The existence of gendered statistical tendencies (some of which, I agree, are rooted in biological realities) doesn't mean that there aren't social structures that penalize people for deviating from those tendencies.
    - misslibby 5y ago
      How is anybody penalized for "deviating from those tendencies" these days?
      - scarmig 5y ago
        E.g. on the woman's side of things, a woman who is messy is judged worse than a man who's equivalently messy would be, which is society actively pushing women toward taking up more household responsibilities. On the man's side of things, a man who is a part time teacher's aid for the sake of work-life flexibility is judged as lazier than a woman doing the same thing would be, which is society actively pushing men toward taking up more work responsibilities.

bobthechef 5y ago