8 ms·

On the one hand, WSL has made Windows truly viable as a developer platform. But on the other hand, this sort of aggressive marketing bullshit makes it such an u

On the one hand, WSL has made Windows truly viable as a developer platform. But on the other hand, this sort of aggressive marketing bullshit makes it such an unfriendly place to be. I want my computer to treat me as an adult. Since it increasingly doesn't, I did the adult thing and walked away. If a relationship turns abusive, one must leave. I would love to be able to pay for "Windows Professional" or something to get rid of this bullshit. But I guess my eyeballs are more valuable than my dollars. In that case, MS will get neither. I moved back to Linux two months ago because of shit like this. Good riddance. Thankfully wine acts as the WSL for Linux, and makes the migration possible.

lucb1e 5y ago
> I would love to be able to pay for "Windows Professional" or something to get rid of this bullshit. That's kinda what I felt this Pro version was for, back in the good old days that would get you extra features useful for power users, but then recently they pulled this: > New Windows 11 Pro installations will require Microsoft account -- 2022-02-18 https://tweakers.net/nieuws/193418/windows-11-pro-installatie-gaat-microsoft-account-vereisen.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/193418/windows-11-pro-installati... Basically the last credibility they had with me, with all the linux and open source things they've been doing since ballmer is gone. So uh yeah thanks microsoft, imma stay with Debian+Cinnamon a bit longer here o/
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > New Windows 11 Pro installations will require Microsoft account I don’t really understand why this is a problem for you, let alone such a major problem. Takes two seconds to set up an account. I don’t even use Windows and I already have one!
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    It's perfectly natural to not want to have an account even if it's trivial to make, and even if you already have one, it's a basic privacy desire to refuse to link your computer to this account. It's also a reasonable desire to have your computer local authentication be completely separate any from Microsoft service, ensuring that the events are private and don't even get communicated to Microsoft, much less being able to circumvent local authentication by anyone who is in control of that cloud account.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      > it's a basic privacy desire to refuse to link your computer to this account Seems a bit tin-foil in these days. Which is a fine preference for an individual if they’re into that scene, but you can understand why Microsoft doesn’t care about such a tiny proportion of society.
      - AniseAbyss 5y ago
      - quantum_solanum 5y ago
        Almost like Microsoft deliberately helped marginalize the position because it's profitable!
        chrisseaton 5y ago
        How many niche preferences can Microsoft be expected to accommodate? What about people who refuse to use capital letters? Can you use Windows without using capital letters? At some point it's reasonable to design for most people.
        salawat 5y ago
        Congratulations. You strawmanned. So where does the heap fallacy start kicking in? Because every feature I see delivered seems more tuned for keeping a PM working than actually making the user's life any easier. They gave up every pretense of gaining or humoring "consent" when the implemented Cortana's little "you need to agree to this or, ya know, no windows" bs.
      - Silhouette 5y ago
        Seems a bit tin-foil in these days. These days? Surely these days it is beyond any reasonable doubt that not only were a lot of the tin-foil fashionistas right all along but also the suggested dangers of modern always-connected technology do now actually harm real people in real ways quite often. Just look at the subject of this very discussion. The most disturbing thing is that it's still only a relatively small proportion of society who will actively try to avoid the trap. From my own experience it's not even that the others don't care -- plenty of them are well aware of what is being done to them and they don't like it -- but they think the alternatives are just as bad and they're (reasonably enough) not willing to become digital hermits who are disconnected from normal life just to avoid the likes of Microsoft, Google and Apple.
  - fortyseven 5y ago
  - riidom 5y ago
    If your OS installation is bound to an account, and this account is blocked for some reason (which is not too hard to imagine, since on HN there is a post about such things happening twice a week) - what may be the consequences of this?
    - johnny22 5y ago
      I've been totally ok with folks getting booted from twitter/social media sites for various reasons. But access to fundamental resources like your own computer or primary email address is a different story. The rules need to be much more stringent there You shouldn't lose your gmail account for being an asshole on youtube, and one shouldn't lose their access to their local computer even for commiting fraud on the MS app store (whatever it's called) One should be able to get banned from gmail if you really break the rules of course, but great care needs to be taken, and the same care (and even more) to make sure you don't lose access to your own computer.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      > what may be the consequences of this? Need to get a new computer? Doesn't seem the end of the world for such an unlikely act.
      - akoncius 5y ago
        so.. in that case it means computer belings to MS even if I paid full price?
      - userbinator 5y ago
        Imagine that all your files have been helpfully encrypted --- for your security, of course --- with a key that is bound to that account you can no longer use. I'm not sure if this is possible or the default now on Windows, but it's common for mobile devices.
        chrisseaton 5y ago
        You've got backups. Right? And Microsoft already controls all your software if you're running Windows. It could already delete your files if they wanted to.
  - lucb1e 5y ago
    If you speak or care to translate Dutch, you might also be interested in this other article on the same site: https://tweakers.net/reviews/9094/all/account-geblokkeerd-wat-nu.html https://tweakers.net/reviews/9094/all/account-geblokkeerd-wa... Excerpt via Deepl.com: > In all the conversations, it comes out how powerless people feel. You might think that if a company decides to algorithmically block people, there is a support department that can easily reverse mistakes, but that is not true. The department that deals with it is hard to reach. Or, as one customer service rep told BroncoJasperado, "The only team that has access to this is the team that you can reach through the form you already filled out. They are also not reachable by phone and are not located in an office that you can visit." These are paying customers of Microsoft's. Recently also a Dutch judge said MS had to unblock an account because MS could not provide the evidence why it was blocked. Something about american laws and child pornography that was allegedly stored on the account (I can look up the article if you want). In most cases, the judge just rules it's fine because they're a commercial service and they are under no obligation to have you as a customer. You have to sue to even hear as much as "the cause was X" (even if they then can't/won't/don't provide X as evidence). There is little to no recourse. A typical user whose MS account is banned might lose access to: - Their game collection in Xbox / game pass - All documents, pictures, etc. in OneDrive. A family member actually has all documents for their business on OneDrive because there is this history thing (can't permanently remove things by accident), MS guarantees your backups, it's all hands-off and super safe. On my recommendation, they did end up making an offline backup just in case... but I imagine that for every person like that family member, there are also a hundred business owners that would simply lose their business data. - Microsoft Office products bought via 365 - Presumably purchases on the microsoft app store, but last I checked it contained only a few dummy apps and had horrible UX so I don't know how much this is used now - Your email on Outlook.com - And now also their computer? What is this, ransomware? So for me, my Microsoft account being banned (one of probably a dozen by now) would have as impact that I can't play a game anymore that I paid for. I'd be pissed but it gets so much worse if you're a Windows user. And it's not just MS, it's also Google (there the worst I could lose is a Youtube account where I've uploaded a few unpopular videos over the past decade), Facebook, etc.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    The problem isn't the set up process. It's the practice of having to have one. I don't even care if I have a MS account or not but I really don't want it linked to my own computer. It means someone with access to my MS account can access my computer too, and it means Microsoft can collate all my recorded telemetry activity to my identity.
- dizkodo 5y ago
  Microsoft's being really aggressive now it seems. Won't even allow you to install Windows Pro without having an internet connection AND a Microsoft account? They seem adamant to keep as many people as they can on Windows 10.
  - rootw0rm 5y ago
    Hmm, this wasn't true for me. I just did a fresh install of Windows 11 Pro, and I wasn't required to have a Microsoft account...I did however install from a Windows 11 N source, and updated the license to my Education key shortly after installation.
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      It only requires this in the very latest insider beta. It hasn't reached mainstream yet.
grenoire 5y ago
You can obtain (in your preferred way) a copy of Windows 10 LTSC (IoT optional). I run it, and can develop, do administrative work, play games, and more. I have not had any issues with it. I think there's some littered telemetry but man, I just deal with it.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
  Does Xbox overlay and all the Windows gaming integrations work? I've found a cheap LTSC license and might just give this a try later today. I only use Windows as my second boot option for emergencies when I can't use Linux.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - grenoire 5y ago
    Most features are simply disabled by default but can be toggled. You can bloat it all the way up to a regular Windows 10 installation.
- dartharva 5y ago
  What's the difference between generic and IoT LTSC? And does it support the winget app package manager?
  - grenoire 5y ago
    Sorry, forgot to respond: IoT has a longer official support duration, i.e. it'll get updates for an additional 5 years for a total of 10 years.
- layer8 5y ago
  Unfortunately, with the current LTSC release Microsoft reduced the lifetime from 10 to 5 years.
  - emptysongglass 5y ago
npteljes 5y ago
>Since it increasingly doesn't, I did the adult thing and walked away. If a relationship turns abusive, one must leave. I'm happy how you formulated this thought. I feel the same way. I don't deserve this level of distrust and micromanagement in my own digital home. In my opinion a Professional edition that really works like one would solve this issue for real but again, my conclusion is the same, that the end goal must not be to make a good operating system. Linux is a haven compared to the state of things and especially in this regard. And Wine is a wonder.
- fartcannon 5y ago
  Don't forget the BSDs!
asteroidp 5y ago
I would love to buy software that doesn't pull this shit. It shouldn't just be a expensive version

lucb1e 5y ago

> I would love to be able to pay for "Windows Professional" or something to get rid of this bullshit. That's kinda what I felt this Pro version was for, back in the good old days that would get you extra features useful for power users, but then recently they pulled this: > New Windows 11 Pro installations will require Microsoft account -- 2022-02-18 https://tweakers.net/nieuws/193418/windows-11-pro-installatie-gaat-microsoft-account-vereisen.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/193418/windows-11-pro-installati... Basically the last credibility they had with me, with all the linux and open source things they've been doing since ballmer is gone. So uh yeah thanks microsoft, imma stay with Debian+Cinnamon a bit longer here o/

chrisseaton 5y ago
> New Windows 11 Pro installations will require Microsoft account I don’t really understand why this is a problem for you, let alone such a major problem. Takes two seconds to set up an account. I don’t even use Windows and I already have one!
- PeterisP 5y ago
  It's perfectly natural to not want to have an account even if it's trivial to make, and even if you already have one, it's a basic privacy desire to refuse to link your computer to this account. It's also a reasonable desire to have your computer local authentication be completely separate any from Microsoft service, ensuring that the events are private and don't even get communicated to Microsoft, much less being able to circumvent local authentication by anyone who is in control of that cloud account.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > it's a basic privacy desire to refuse to link your computer to this account Seems a bit tin-foil in these days. Which is a fine preference for an individual if they’re into that scene, but you can understand why Microsoft doesn’t care about such a tiny proportion of society.
    - AniseAbyss 5y ago
    - quantum_solanum 5y ago
      Almost like Microsoft deliberately helped marginalize the position because it's profitable!
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        How many niche preferences can Microsoft be expected to accommodate? What about people who refuse to use capital letters? Can you use Windows without using capital letters? At some point it's reasonable to design for most people.
        salawat 5y ago
        Congratulations. You strawmanned. So where does the heap fallacy start kicking in? Because every feature I see delivered seems more tuned for keeping a PM working than actually making the user's life any easier. They gave up every pretense of gaining or humoring "consent" when the implemented Cortana's little "you need to agree to this or, ya know, no windows" bs.
    - Silhouette 5y ago
      Seems a bit tin-foil in these days. These days? Surely these days it is beyond any reasonable doubt that not only were a lot of the tin-foil fashionistas right all along but also the suggested dangers of modern always-connected technology do now actually harm real people in real ways quite often. Just look at the subject of this very discussion. The most disturbing thing is that it's still only a relatively small proportion of society who will actively try to avoid the trap. From my own experience it's not even that the others don't care -- plenty of them are well aware of what is being done to them and they don't like it -- but they think the alternatives are just as bad and they're (reasonably enough) not willing to become digital hermits who are disconnected from normal life just to avoid the likes of Microsoft, Google and Apple.
- fortyseven 5y ago
- riidom 5y ago
  If your OS installation is bound to an account, and this account is blocked for some reason (which is not too hard to imagine, since on HN there is a post about such things happening twice a week) - what may be the consequences of this?
  - johnny22 5y ago
    I've been totally ok with folks getting booted from twitter/social media sites for various reasons. But access to fundamental resources like your own computer or primary email address is a different story. The rules need to be much more stringent there You shouldn't lose your gmail account for being an asshole on youtube, and one shouldn't lose their access to their local computer even for commiting fraud on the MS app store (whatever it's called) One should be able to get banned from gmail if you really break the rules of course, but great care needs to be taken, and the same care (and even more) to make sure you don't lose access to your own computer.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > what may be the consequences of this? Need to get a new computer? Doesn't seem the end of the world for such an unlikely act.
    - akoncius 5y ago
      so.. in that case it means computer belings to MS even if I paid full price?
    - userbinator 5y ago
      Imagine that all your files have been helpfully encrypted --- for your security, of course --- with a key that is bound to that account you can no longer use. I'm not sure if this is possible or the default now on Windows, but it's common for mobile devices.
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        You've got backups. Right? And Microsoft already controls all your software if you're running Windows. It could already delete your files if they wanted to.
- lucb1e 5y ago
  If you speak or care to translate Dutch, you might also be interested in this other article on the same site: https://tweakers.net/reviews/9094/all/account-geblokkeerd-wat-nu.html https://tweakers.net/reviews/9094/all/account-geblokkeerd-wa... Excerpt via Deepl.com: > In all the conversations, it comes out how powerless people feel. You might think that if a company decides to algorithmically block people, there is a support department that can easily reverse mistakes, but that is not true. The department that deals with it is hard to reach. Or, as one customer service rep told BroncoJasperado, "The only team that has access to this is the team that you can reach through the form you already filled out. They are also not reachable by phone and are not located in an office that you can visit." These are paying customers of Microsoft's. Recently also a Dutch judge said MS had to unblock an account because MS could not provide the evidence why it was blocked. Something about american laws and child pornography that was allegedly stored on the account (I can look up the article if you want). In most cases, the judge just rules it's fine because they're a commercial service and they are under no obligation to have you as a customer. You have to sue to even hear as much as "the cause was X" (even if they then can't/won't/don't provide X as evidence). There is little to no recourse. A typical user whose MS account is banned might lose access to: - Their game collection in Xbox / game pass - All documents, pictures, etc. in OneDrive. A family member actually has all documents for their business on OneDrive because there is this history thing (can't permanently remove things by accident), MS guarantees your backups, it's all hands-off and super safe. On my recommendation, they did end up making an offline backup just in case... but I imagine that for every person like that family member, there are also a hundred business owners that would simply lose their business data. - Microsoft Office products bought via 365 - Presumably purchases on the microsoft app store, but last I checked it contained only a few dummy apps and had horrible UX so I don't know how much this is used now - Your email on Outlook.com - And now also their computer? What is this, ransomware? So for me, my Microsoft account being banned (one of probably a dozen by now) would have as impact that I can't play a game anymore that I paid for. I'd be pissed but it gets so much worse if you're a Windows user. And it's not just MS, it's also Google (there the worst I could lose is a Youtube account where I've uploaded a few unpopular videos over the past decade), Facebook, etc.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  The problem isn't the set up process. It's the practice of having to have one. I don't even care if I have a MS account or not but I really don't want it linked to my own computer. It means someone with access to my MS account can access my computer too, and it means Microsoft can collate all my recorded telemetry activity to my identity.
dizkodo 5y ago
Microsoft's being really aggressive now it seems. Won't even allow you to install Windows Pro without having an internet connection AND a Microsoft account? They seem adamant to keep as many people as they can on Windows 10.
- rootw0rm 5y ago
  Hmm, this wasn't true for me. I just did a fresh install of Windows 11 Pro, and I wasn't required to have a Microsoft account...I did however install from a Windows 11 N source, and updated the license to my Education key shortly after installation.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    It only requires this in the very latest insider beta. It hasn't reached mainstream yet.

grenoire 5y ago

You can obtain (in your preferred way) a copy of Windows 10 LTSC (IoT optional). I run it, and can develop, do administrative work, play games, and more. I have not had any issues with it. I think there's some littered telemetry but man, I just deal with it.

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
Does Xbox overlay and all the Windows gaming integrations work? I've found a cheap LTSC license and might just give this a try later today. I only use Windows as my second boot option for emergencies when I can't use Linux.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- grenoire 5y ago
  Most features are simply disabled by default but can be toggled. You can bloat it all the way up to a regular Windows 10 installation.
dartharva 5y ago
What's the difference between generic and IoT LTSC? And does it support the winget app package manager?
- grenoire 5y ago
  Sorry, forgot to respond: IoT has a longer official support duration, i.e. it'll get updates for an additional 5 years for a total of 10 years.
layer8 5y ago
Unfortunately, with the current LTSC release Microsoft reduced the lifetime from 10 to 5 years.
- emptysongglass 5y ago

npteljes 5y ago

>Since it increasingly doesn't, I did the adult thing and walked away. If a relationship turns abusive, one must leave. I'm happy how you formulated this thought. I feel the same way. I don't deserve this level of distrust and micromanagement in my own digital home. In my opinion a Professional edition that really works like one would solve this issue for real but again, my conclusion is the same, that the end goal must not be to make a good operating system. Linux is a haven compared to the state of things and especially in this regard. And Wine is a wonder.

fartcannon 5y ago
Don't forget the BSDs!

asteroidp 5y ago

I would love to buy software that doesn't pull this shit. It shouldn't just be a expensive version