4 ms·

Systemic discriminations against men.

dijit 5y ago
I suspect there will be an emotional reaction to a message posted naked like this, but assuming you're not trolling or trying to farm for downvotes: You're not entirely wrong. There is absolutely a correlation between education being focused on female success (a combination of predominantly female teaching staff and optimising for traits generally held by women such as agreeableness) and the trends we've been seeing for 30 years now. Unfortunately this is not the popular narrative, but it does need to be discussed. EDIT: I, unlike the parent, am not trolling, so if you're going to downvote I would prefer a rebuttal. Citation 1 (agreeableness as a direct consequence of academic success): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1041608021001187 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S104160802... Citation 2 (women on average are more agreeable than men): https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2011.00178 https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2011.00178 Citation 3 (Gender distribution of academic success over the last few decades): https://w3.unece.org/PXWeb2015/pxweb/en/STAT/STAT__30-GE__04-EducatAndcommunicat/005_en_GEECGraduates_r.px/ https://w3.unece.org/PXWeb2015/pxweb/en/STAT/STAT__30-GE__04... Citation 4 (Gender distribution of teachers in the USA): https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/clr https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/clr Citation 5 (Gender of teacher affecting academic performance of same gender): https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/696203 https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/696203 So we have direct correlation with a personality trait, it being attributed to a sex and a seeming consequence. I could be wrong, but while correlation does not equal causation: this does seem to be a very strong correlation.
- goto11 5y ago
  None of this shows systemic discrimination against men.
  - dijit 5y ago
    Systematic Discrimination is not an intent, it is a consequence. As defined: “Systematic discrimination, also called institutionalized discrimination, refers to a method of discrimination which occurs regularly in the workplace as an inherent part of the company through interactions and processes creating a disadvantage for people with common set characteristics such as race, gender and disability over a long period of time. Systematic discrimination is not apparent at first sight but is actually systematic in its application of policies and practices.” Similar evidence is presented commonly to explain why the executives are predominantly male, I'm not sure why the circumstances must be different here.
    - goto11 5y ago
      Women are under-represented among university professors.
      - dijit 5y ago
        Even if true, which you assert without citation: How would that affect who goes to university?
      - belorn 5y ago
        The average amount of time a person has been taught by a professor is a tiny tiny portion of the individual person education. It would be interesting to see a number for it, but I suspect its significant less than 0.1% of all the hours that the average person spend in the education system. Professors are under-represented in the education system.
  - transcriptase 5y ago
    You managed to read all 5 of the citations in less than 20 minutes?
    - goto11 5y ago
      I don't question the particular claims in isolation, but they are obviously cherry-picked. If having more female middle-school teachers have a discriminatory effect towards males, then surly having more male university professors and are discriminatory towards women, right? Somehow women have still been able to overcome that, historically.
  - ncpa-cpl 5y ago
    Last year I was considering applying to a master in the IT field. The University which had the programme I liked the most didn't offer for scholarships for men that I could apply for, only for women or trans-women.
    - decremental 5y ago
    - Banana699 5y ago
  - temp8964 5y ago
    This is not how "systemic discrimination" defined nowadays. You can't define systemic discrimination against men in one way (with intention), and define systemic discrimination against women in a different way (only look at specific outcomes).
    - goto11 5y ago
      If we define any difference in outcome as discrimination (which I don't find useful, but I'll accept it for the sake of argument), then I think we should make a clear distinction between discriminatory factors which the individual affected can control and change, and discriminatory factors which are outside of the control of the individual.
  - YATA0 5y ago
    All of that shows systemic discrimination against men.
  - Dma54rhs 5y ago
    But the outcomes are so the system is discriminatory.
notfromhere 5y ago
As a man, I can tell you that I have experienced discrimination exactly zero times.
- maccolgan 5y ago
  Your government doesn't do gender-specific subsidies?

I suspect there will be an emotional reaction to a message posted naked like this, but assuming you're not trolling or trying to farm for downvotes: You're not entirely wrong. There is absolutely a correlation between education being focused on female success (a combination of predominantly female teaching staff and optimising for traits generally held by women such as agreeableness) and the trends we've been seeing for 30 years now. Unfortunately this is not the popular narrative, but it does need to be discussed. EDIT: I, unlike the parent, am not trolling, so if you're going to downvote I would prefer a rebuttal. Citation 1 (agreeableness as a direct consequence of academic success): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1041608021001187 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S104160802... Citation 2 (women on average are more agreeable than men): https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2011.00178 https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2011.00178 Citation 3 (Gender distribution of academic success over the last few decades): https://w3.unece.org/PXWeb2015/pxweb/en/STAT/STAT__30-GE__04-EducatAndcommunicat/005_en_GEECGraduates_r.px/ https://w3.unece.org/PXWeb2015/pxweb/en/STAT/STAT__30-GE__04... Citation 4 (Gender distribution of teachers in the USA): https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/clr https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/clr Citation 5 (Gender of teacher affecting academic performance of same gender): https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/696203 https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/696203 So we have direct correlation with a personality trait, it being attributed to a sex and a seeming consequence. I could be wrong, but while correlation does not equal causation: this does seem to be a very strong correlation.

goto11 5y ago
None of this shows systemic discrimination against men.
- dijit 5y ago
  Systematic Discrimination is not an intent, it is a consequence. As defined: “Systematic discrimination, also called institutionalized discrimination, refers to a method of discrimination which occurs regularly in the workplace as an inherent part of the company through interactions and processes creating a disadvantage for people with common set characteristics such as race, gender and disability over a long period of time. Systematic discrimination is not apparent at first sight but is actually systematic in its application of policies and practices.” Similar evidence is presented commonly to explain why the executives are predominantly male, I'm not sure why the circumstances must be different here.
  - goto11 5y ago
    Women are under-represented among university professors.
    - dijit 5y ago
      Even if true, which you assert without citation: How would that affect who goes to university?
    - belorn 5y ago
      The average amount of time a person has been taught by a professor is a tiny tiny portion of the individual person education. It would be interesting to see a number for it, but I suspect its significant less than 0.1% of all the hours that the average person spend in the education system. Professors are under-represented in the education system.
- transcriptase 5y ago
  You managed to read all 5 of the citations in less than 20 minutes?
  - goto11 5y ago
    I don't question the particular claims in isolation, but they are obviously cherry-picked. If having more female middle-school teachers have a discriminatory effect towards males, then surly having more male university professors and are discriminatory towards women, right? Somehow women have still been able to overcome that, historically.
- ncpa-cpl 5y ago
  Last year I was considering applying to a master in the IT field. The University which had the programme I liked the most didn't offer for scholarships for men that I could apply for, only for women or trans-women.
  - decremental 5y ago
  - Banana699 5y ago
- temp8964 5y ago
  This is not how "systemic discrimination" defined nowadays. You can't define systemic discrimination against men in one way (with intention), and define systemic discrimination against women in a different way (only look at specific outcomes).
  - goto11 5y ago
    If we define any difference in outcome as discrimination (which I don't find useful, but I'll accept it for the sake of argument), then I think we should make a clear distinction between discriminatory factors which the individual affected can control and change, and discriminatory factors which are outside of the control of the individual.
- YATA0 5y ago
  All of that shows systemic discrimination against men.
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  But the outcomes are so the system is discriminatory.

notfromhere 5y ago

As a man, I can tell you that I have experienced discrimination exactly zero times.

maccolgan 5y ago
Your government doesn't do gender-specific subsidies?