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Hyperbole and pro-war propaganda are the norm for this topic, but historical accuracy does matter. Russia is the aggressor in the Ukraine war, but if Russia wa

Hyperbole and pro-war propaganda are the norm for this topic, but historical accuracy does matter. Russia is the aggressor in the Ukraine war, but if Russia was 'Nazi Germany' they'd be building forced-labor concentration camps all across Ukraine, as Nazi Germany did in Poland, prior to the murder of millions of people in those camps. Similar hyperbole is trotted out in every conflict. The Saudis are Nazis to the Yemeni people, the Israelis are Nazis to the Palestinian people, so we should have a mass boycott and divestment not just from Russia, but from Saudi Arabia and Israel as well. Of course this isn't going to happen, and thus the moral authority to condemn Russia's aggression doesn't actually exist for the United States (see Iraq as well). As far as nukes, we'd be back in the large-scale tank battles of WWII without nukes. They generally have a stabilizing influence as the architects of wars are notably reluctant to place themselves on the firing line; sending kids off to die somewhere else is not a problem for them, but facing the nuclear annihilation of their own home is another matter.

mlyle 5y ago
> building forced-labor concentration camps all across Ukraine, as Nazi Germany did in Poland There's reports of Russia extracting hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians to camps within Russian borders. We don't know the exact scale or nature of these camps yet. > Of course this isn't going to happen, and thus the moral authority to condemn Russia's aggression Ah, whataboutism. We're not doing shit about one terrible situation, so we shouldn't do shit about any terrible situation.
- netsharc 5y ago
  OP's comment is weird, it's like "Only when you've passed this threshold can you be compared to Nazi Germany.". Maybe they should also have uniforms designed by Hugo Boss to qualify? This article has 3 entries from 3 teenagers, the last one is from a teenager of a Pro-Russian family who have been relocated to Russia. He's writing they've been rescued from the "tyranny": https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/apr/01/who-will-return-my-stolen-life-to-me-the-teenagers-who-fled-mariupol-ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/apr/01/w...
- photochemsyn 5y ago
  Countries with skeletons in their closets trying to play global policeman open themselves up to the charge of hypocrisy. A uniform standard of justice is a key requirement of any legal system of accountability, in my opinion. Pointing out hypocrisy could be called 'whataboutism' I suppose, but what about hypocrisy? Isn't hypocrisy - backing murderers here, opposing murderers there, justifying that support entirely on some vague notion of 'national interests' - something of a problem?
  - mlyle 5y ago
    > Countries with skeletons in their closets So just about any country... given that nations themselves are mostly-immoral geopolitical entities. > trying to play global policeman open themselves up to the charge of hypocrisy. Perhaps. But massive outrage at atrocities can't be blunted with "eh, your country didn't care about it elsewhere." Your first comment is very strange. Russia seems to be following the expansionist genocide playbook. But they can't be compared to Nazi Germany because, uh, they've not managed to secure too much of the Ukrainian population yet, and there's not ironclad evidence of mass incarceration of Ukrainians yet?
  - ajuc 5y ago
    > Countries with skeletons in their closets trying to play global policeman open themselves up to the charge of hypocrisy. Every country has skeletons in its closet. Should we then just ignore crimes against humanity? > Isn't hypocrisy - backing murderers here, opposing murderers there, justifying that support entirely on some vague notion of 'national interests' - something of a problem? Nope, hypocrisy by itself isn't a problem. To understand why consider a criminal that once thought stealing is ok, then got caught, was in prison for his sentence, repented, and now thinks that stealing isn't ok. Can he complain to authorities that his neighbor was robbed? You are saying he shouldn't. It's not only absurd - it's also morally repulsive. The only reason you could think avoiding hypocrisy justifies ignoring crimes against humanity is if you're trying to defend the murderers.
  - moistly 5y ago
    Oh no, not hypocrisy! Not when children are being raped! How terrible! First, we must not be hypocritical and only then can we oppose child rape and murder!!eleventyone! Dude. Just don’t.
ajuc 5y ago
> if Russia was 'Nazi Germany' they'd be building forced-labor concentration camps all across Ukraine, as Nazi Germany did in Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag This system of forced labor concentration camps was active in USSR till 1987. > The tentative consensus in contemporary Soviet historiography is that roughly 1,600,000[b] died due to detention in the camps That's on top of outright mass killings and ethnic (yes - ethnic) cleansings done by USSR. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor You can argue nazis killed more people, but it's the same order of magnitude (millions). Nobody was held responsible for these crimes against humanity. There was no Nuremberg trials for soviet mass murderers and torturers. These people often worked for NKVD/KGB and remained in power after it turned into FSB (which Putin was a member of). These people (or their subordinates) are still ruling Russia. So there's no wonder they are still doing ethnic cleansings, mass murders and terror. I stand by my opinion - Russia is a nazi germany with nukes.
- eveningcoffee 5y ago
  No, Nazis did not kill more people. Actually they killed considerably less because they had less time to do it. Winning WWII allowed to start actual repressions against occupied nations.
  - ajuc 5y ago
    I've seen estimates by pretty objective (certainly not pro-Russian) historians like Timothy Snyder that were re-evaluated recently and they've shown that nazis did kill more people. Not by much though.
    - reitanqild 5y ago
      Did that include Holodomor, pogroms etc?
Nasrudith 5y ago
Pro-war propaganda by condemning the aggressor? That is quite the "interesting" definition. Saying others have no right to condemn naked aggression and crimes against humanity and whataboutism is a far better fit for pro-war propaganda.

mlyle 5y ago

> building forced-labor concentration camps all across Ukraine, as Nazi Germany did in Poland There's reports of Russia extracting hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians to camps within Russian borders. We don't know the exact scale or nature of these camps yet. > Of course this isn't going to happen, and thus the moral authority to condemn Russia's aggression Ah, whataboutism. We're not doing shit about one terrible situation, so we shouldn't do shit about any terrible situation.

netsharc 5y ago
OP's comment is weird, it's like "Only when you've passed this threshold can you be compared to Nazi Germany.". Maybe they should also have uniforms designed by Hugo Boss to qualify? This article has 3 entries from 3 teenagers, the last one is from a teenager of a Pro-Russian family who have been relocated to Russia. He's writing they've been rescued from the "tyranny": https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/apr/01/who-will-return-my-stolen-life-to-me-the-teenagers-who-fled-mariupol-ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/apr/01/w...
photochemsyn 5y ago
Countries with skeletons in their closets trying to play global policeman open themselves up to the charge of hypocrisy. A uniform standard of justice is a key requirement of any legal system of accountability, in my opinion. Pointing out hypocrisy could be called 'whataboutism' I suppose, but what about hypocrisy? Isn't hypocrisy - backing murderers here, opposing murderers there, justifying that support entirely on some vague notion of 'national interests' - something of a problem?
- mlyle 5y ago
  > Countries with skeletons in their closets So just about any country... given that nations themselves are mostly-immoral geopolitical entities. > trying to play global policeman open themselves up to the charge of hypocrisy. Perhaps. But massive outrage at atrocities can't be blunted with "eh, your country didn't care about it elsewhere." Your first comment is very strange. Russia seems to be following the expansionist genocide playbook. But they can't be compared to Nazi Germany because, uh, they've not managed to secure too much of the Ukrainian population yet, and there's not ironclad evidence of mass incarceration of Ukrainians yet?
- ajuc 5y ago
  > Countries with skeletons in their closets trying to play global policeman open themselves up to the charge of hypocrisy. Every country has skeletons in its closet. Should we then just ignore crimes against humanity? > Isn't hypocrisy - backing murderers here, opposing murderers there, justifying that support entirely on some vague notion of 'national interests' - something of a problem? Nope, hypocrisy by itself isn't a problem. To understand why consider a criminal that once thought stealing is ok, then got caught, was in prison for his sentence, repented, and now thinks that stealing isn't ok. Can he complain to authorities that his neighbor was robbed? You are saying he shouldn't. It's not only absurd - it's also morally repulsive. The only reason you could think avoiding hypocrisy justifies ignoring crimes against humanity is if you're trying to defend the murderers.
- moistly 5y ago
  Oh no, not hypocrisy! Not when children are being raped! How terrible! First, we must not be hypocritical and only then can we oppose child rape and murder!!eleventyone! Dude. Just don’t.

ajuc 5y ago

> if Russia was 'Nazi Germany' they'd be building forced-labor concentration camps all across Ukraine, as Nazi Germany did in Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag This system of forced labor concentration camps was active in USSR till 1987. > The tentative consensus in contemporary Soviet historiography is that roughly 1,600,000[b] died due to detention in the camps That's on top of outright mass killings and ethnic (yes - ethnic) cleansings done by USSR. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor You can argue nazis killed more people, but it's the same order of magnitude (millions). Nobody was held responsible for these crimes against humanity. There was no Nuremberg trials for soviet mass murderers and torturers. These people often worked for NKVD/KGB and remained in power after it turned into FSB (which Putin was a member of). These people (or their subordinates) are still ruling Russia. So there's no wonder they are still doing ethnic cleansings, mass murders and terror. I stand by my opinion - Russia is a nazi germany with nukes.

eveningcoffee 5y ago
No, Nazis did not kill more people. Actually they killed considerably less because they had less time to do it. Winning WWII allowed to start actual repressions against occupied nations.
- ajuc 5y ago
  I've seen estimates by pretty objective (certainly not pro-Russian) historians like Timothy Snyder that were re-evaluated recently and they've shown that nazis did kill more people. Not by much though.
  - reitanqild 5y ago
    Did that include Holodomor, pogroms etc?

Nasrudith 5y ago

Pro-war propaganda by condemning the aggressor? That is quite the "interesting" definition. Saying others have no right to condemn naked aggression and crimes against humanity and whataboutism is a far better fit for pro-war propaganda.