7 ms·

It's also worth trying an OS which respects you as a user (such as GNU/Linux)

by Liquix 5y ago

dylan604 5y ago
Useless platitudes. It's a bit of victim blaming. Yes, I believe any Windows user is a victim. However, do you really think this person on HN would not switch to Linux if they did not have compelling reasons for having to use Windows?
- nerdponx 5y ago
  I actually love Windows (although I haven't used 11 yet and probably never will). Maybe it's just what I grew up with, but all the native widget interactions feel perfect, even after the Win 8 style transition. The mouse acceleration is exactly what I expect. The taskbar behaves precisely how I want a taskbar to behave. The filesystem layout is refreshingly straightforward compared to the Unix/Posix FHS. Windows Defender does its job and gets out of the way (remember Norton/McAfee and Spybot?). And there are a ton of nice graphical "power user" applications available. Part of the reason I like KDE so much is that it feels so Windows-like. But every time I boot into my Windows desktop, I feel a bit sad knowing that there is nothing quite like it in the GNU/Linux world. There is that one Windows-API-compatible OS, but I have no idea if that will ever be viable as a daily driver.
  - themacguffinman 5y ago
    > There is that one Windows-API-compatible OS lol don't have to be coy about naming it, it's called ReactOS. It's an OS project that attempts to be a clean-room implementation of the Windows API. The latest news about it popped up yesterday for being able to run some old Battlefield games: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30888799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30888799 Progress is understandably slow but since Microsoft has significantly lowered investment in Windows itself and are pivoting away from it to Azure, I can imagine a possible but distant future where Windows allows Wine & ReactOS to catch up because little beyond surface-level UI changes happen on Windows anymore.
  - p1peridine 5y ago
    I agree, but > Windows Defender does its job and gets out of the way WD is easily bypassed [1]. It's all smoke and mirrors - Microsoft has never cared about security. The OS is full of wontfix exploits (this is frowned upon to talk about in the security research community, especially among the big players, wonder why...) One would benefit in exploring the thought that WD is valuable for MS in the way that it can be used to restrict 'personal computing' - the applications you download and use, the files you download and create, all recorded and hashed in some database, all under the guise of security. DeCSS is a good example [2]. One would also benefit in exploring the thought of the possibility that MS spends significant amounts of money in paying off MS partners, researchers, news outlets etc. to convince the public that defender will keep you safe. I repeat, Microsoft does not care about security. That said, a properly hardened Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC with telemetry removed [3], along with a third-party/router firewall is the way to go, in my opinion. [1] https://github.com/search?o=desc&q=Windows+Defender&s=updated&type=Repositories https://github.com/search?o=desc&q=Windows+Defender&s=update... [2] https://www.arch13.com/ms-windows-defender-decss/ https://www.arch13.com/ms-windows-defender-decss/ [3] https://www.bsi.bund.de/EN/Topics/Cyber-Security/Recommendations/SiSyPHuS_Win10/AP4/SiSyPHuS_AP4_node.html https://www.bsi.bund.de/EN/Topics/Cyber-Security/Recommendat...
    - CSm1n 5y ago
      The repositories shown on the first page of GitHub search are not actual exploits. They all expect to be run through an admin powershell/command line. Under normal conditions (default user and UAC on) you will get a warning before the script is able to gain administrative access. Try to run them again under a normal user and they won't be able to disable/bypass Defender. It's the same as sudo'ing an unknown script you received in an email. At that point you're begging to be pwned.
      - p1peridine 5y ago
        Sort by Best match or Most stars. Those github repos are just examples. Pro malware creators wouldn't just copy and paste some code or else it would be detected fairly easily. UAC is easily bypassed as well. In fact, the majority of wontfix exploits has something to do with UAC. > They all expect to be run through an admin powershell/command line. Admin rights will be acquired by using exploits (of which there are many) or by using built-in tools found in the Windows system directory, for example Wscript.exe. No internet connection required. No fetching of external files. You have no say in whether you can allow it to run or not. > you will get a warning before the script is able to gain administrative access. False. You wouldn't even know. Not a visible commandline window to be seen. It's all silent. A well-developed exploit will delete most of it's traces. This is all pretty basic knowledge in the sec research community. Test it and verify it for yourself. I test hardening configurations using a Windows VM.
- hyperman1 5y ago
  It's victim blaming in the same way the partner of an abusive spouse gets told to just leave the spouse. Yes, partner is a victim, but there is a clear action to end the abuse.
isoprophlex 5y ago
Yeah I fully agree... incidentally I started a new job april 1st, my employer provided me with a windows laptop. That's why I had this knowledge ready. First windows experience in many years, it's been equally gross and amusing.
- rejectfinite 5y ago
  >it's been equally gross and amusing. How? A domain joined Windows laptop should have GPOs to remove the ads and shit also SCCM/Intune software center / company portal to install the apps you need.
  - Godel_unicode 5y ago
    You're giving the average IT department far, far too much credit.
    - rejectfinite 5y ago
      I work in one that does this so maybe? Having some kind of Windows 10 "golden image" with SCCM/Intune/PDQ for apps is fairly standard.
  - isoprophlex 5y ago
    Gross because the lock screen insists on serving me dumb ass photos with """interesting""" factoids, in an attempt to ??? Gross because I clicked somewhere by accident and the bottom right of my screen was filled with news snippets and some MS ads. Hilarious because I wanted to change the (default ?) UI scaling from 150 to 100%; there was no obvious way to just type "scaling" somewhere and get to the point, instead I navigated three layers deep through the settings panel, which had three different visual design styles. I read all the windows design snark on HN, without really knowing what is what... turns out it REALLY is as bad as people make it out to be, haha.
    - alar44 5y ago
      You can change your lock screen to whatever you want. I don't care what system I'm on, if I wanted to change display settings, I wouldn't search for scaling, I'd search for display settings. I'm failing to see anything of substance here other than "I didn't immediately know how to do something."
zionic 5y ago
I agree, but I only have windows machines as exclusive gaming boxes. No password on login, no web browsing period, no access to NAS/media/files, no cloud access etc. just has windows and steam/various launchers and peripheral software. I’m are things like proton exist, but there are a million issues with gaming on Linux that I don’t feel like writing a book about in the comment section. Maybe in a few more years…
- nerdponx 5y ago
  It's for the better, I think. Everybody gets so concerned about privacy and then gives Valve a blank check with the Steam launcher. I almost prefer having it on an isolated system, along with the various other game launchers. I also wish I didn't have to use it to buy games, but it seems like any/most PC games are available only through Steam, or some equivalently distasteful proprietary launcher/platform/portal thing.
  - can16358p 5y ago
    I think it's about company image. Microsoft has a long standing reputation for bundling crap and bloat its OS, while doing whatever-telemetry and harder to catch as the author of the OS itself. Valve and Steam has a much better reputation for now, and is respected by many players. I'm not saying it's perfect but at least it's loved by players whereas Microsoft/Windows is more into the hated category, for good well-deserved reasons.
  - forgotpwd16 5y ago
    You can run that stuff if on Windows in Sandboxie or if on Linux containerized. For example I run Steam in an LXD container.
rejectfinite 5y ago
I have games and other software that wont run or wont run as well on Linux. Work is also done on a domain joined Windows laptop. This "just switch to linux lol" is so dumb.
- bamboozled 5y ago
  For games, why not just have a console and a Mac for everything else? I can't believe there is any good reason for people to run Windows on their PC in 2022?
  - rejectfinite 5y ago
    Different games. Games like FF7R, GTA, anmy RPG etc, sure I play on playstation. Good luck playing CSGO, Valorant, Leauge of Legends and my already massive Steam library on PS4 lol Why would you suggest this as a "solution" I run Windows 10 as it runs the software I want. Im on an install from 2015 when it came out and after chaning the default browser, desktop background, some settings customization, its fine. I can also use my own desktop hardware. I have a i7 4790k, 32GB RAM and a 1070ti 3x 1440p monitors. Why should I get a Mac?
  - DanHulton 5y ago
    You must not play many games. There are a variety of games for PC that just aren't on console. If you want to play them, you do not have any alternative. There are a variety of games where you need a mouse, or have grown up using a mouse, and switching to constroller is like asking someone who runs marathons to switch to sack racing. This is not an alternative on consoles. Games are frequently cheaper on PC. MUCH cheaper. If you're on a budget, it's hard to justify. Not all multiplayer games are cross-system compatible, and many never will be. If your friends play on PC, you can't switch to console without agreeing to never play with them again. Maybe you'll be the one to start the exodus if you try, but maybe not. That's a lot to ask of people, to buy a new console, rebuy all their old games, and then be okay with all the above-mentioned issues, including the network effect of your friends' friends who all play on PC, etc. In short, there are quite a number of valid reasons to run Windows on your PC, especially if you play games.
lostgame 5y ago
I’m so tired of hearing this ‘just switch to Linux’ bullshit. If you are privileged enough to be in the extreme minority who can do that - you probably already have. I know you know this - but people need proprietary software, and they need to not guess if it might possibly work through some interpretative layer like WINE. May I remind you a lot of people pay for software they need to use, and sometimes need support or updates that they certainly won’t be guaranteed if they are trying to run software on unsupported systems. If you are somehow privileged enough to not be in that group, you are an extreme - extreme - outlier, and good for you, but don’t bury your head in the sand and forget that for 99% of people, that’s obviously not a possibility - whatsoever - including at least 90% of the workforce who gets handed a laptop and use whatever they have to use. It’s just so irritating to constantly hear this ‘just go to Linux’ bullshit when it’s not like Linux users aren’t aware that it can’t work for the majority of people. If I switch to Linux, I lose Photoshop, Logic Pro, Final Cut Pro, Unity, as well as a handful of plug-ins. That’s $1k plus of software I have paid for and rely on, that I instantly lose access to?! The value loss upon switching to Linux - alone - for most people, who have invested into software ecosystems that can’t be replicated in Linux alone would be astounding. It’s not even the money spent on software, either - it’s the time invested in learning it. I know people who run Linux know this - I wonder why they seem to have forgotten.
- Zababa 5y ago
  People in the workforce that get handed over a laptop with Windows usually don't have any control on it due to company policies, so this is a non-argument. For the rest, I doubt 99% of people actually "need" Windows. 50%? Probably, possibly. Also, proprietary software has nothing to do with Linux or not Linux, there is proprietary software that's not Windows only. I also don't think any of this is about privilge, it's about control. If you want control, you have to work for it. That's how everything works in life. People will always try to take away from you control. Switching to Linux may take work, but it will give you control. Learning a bit more Windows (like the operations mentionned earlier, the registery) will probably be easier and give you less. Everyone can then adjust things depending on how much control they want and time/energy they have.
  - 5y ago

It's also worth trying an OS which respects you as a user (such as GNU/Linux)

by Liquix 5y ago

It's also worth trying an OS which respects you as a user (such as GNU/Linux)

Useless platitudes. It's a bit of victim blaming. Yes, I believe any Windows user is a victim. However, do you really think this person on HN would not switch to Linux if they did not have compelling reasons for having to use Windows?

nerdponx 5y ago
I actually love Windows (although I haven't used 11 yet and probably never will). Maybe it's just what I grew up with, but all the native widget interactions feel perfect, even after the Win 8 style transition. The mouse acceleration is exactly what I expect. The taskbar behaves precisely how I want a taskbar to behave. The filesystem layout is refreshingly straightforward compared to the Unix/Posix FHS. Windows Defender does its job and gets out of the way (remember Norton/McAfee and Spybot?). And there are a ton of nice graphical "power user" applications available. Part of the reason I like KDE so much is that it feels so Windows-like. But every time I boot into my Windows desktop, I feel a bit sad knowing that there is nothing quite like it in the GNU/Linux world. There is that one Windows-API-compatible OS, but I have no idea if that will ever be viable as a daily driver.
- themacguffinman 5y ago
  > There is that one Windows-API-compatible OS lol don't have to be coy about naming it, it's called ReactOS. It's an OS project that attempts to be a clean-room implementation of the Windows API. The latest news about it popped up yesterday for being able to run some old Battlefield games: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30888799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30888799 Progress is understandably slow but since Microsoft has significantly lowered investment in Windows itself and are pivoting away from it to Azure, I can imagine a possible but distant future where Windows allows Wine & ReactOS to catch up because little beyond surface-level UI changes happen on Windows anymore.
- p1peridine 5y ago
  I agree, but > Windows Defender does its job and gets out of the way WD is easily bypassed [1]. It's all smoke and mirrors - Microsoft has never cared about security. The OS is full of wontfix exploits (this is frowned upon to talk about in the security research community, especially among the big players, wonder why...) One would benefit in exploring the thought that WD is valuable for MS in the way that it can be used to restrict 'personal computing' - the applications you download and use, the files you download and create, all recorded and hashed in some database, all under the guise of security. DeCSS is a good example [2]. One would also benefit in exploring the thought of the possibility that MS spends significant amounts of money in paying off MS partners, researchers, news outlets etc. to convince the public that defender will keep you safe. I repeat, Microsoft does not care about security. That said, a properly hardened Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC with telemetry removed [3], along with a third-party/router firewall is the way to go, in my opinion. [1] https://github.com/search?o=desc&q=Windows+Defender&s=updated&type=Repositories https://github.com/search?o=desc&q=Windows+Defender&s=update... [2] https://www.arch13.com/ms-windows-defender-decss/ https://www.arch13.com/ms-windows-defender-decss/ [3] https://www.bsi.bund.de/EN/Topics/Cyber-Security/Recommendations/SiSyPHuS_Win10/AP4/SiSyPHuS_AP4_node.html https://www.bsi.bund.de/EN/Topics/Cyber-Security/Recommendat...
  - CSm1n 5y ago
    The repositories shown on the first page of GitHub search are not actual exploits. They all expect to be run through an admin powershell/command line. Under normal conditions (default user and UAC on) you will get a warning before the script is able to gain administrative access. Try to run them again under a normal user and they won't be able to disable/bypass Defender. It's the same as sudo'ing an unknown script you received in an email. At that point you're begging to be pwned.
    - p1peridine 5y ago
      Sort by Best match or Most stars. Those github repos are just examples. Pro malware creators wouldn't just copy and paste some code or else it would be detected fairly easily. UAC is easily bypassed as well. In fact, the majority of wontfix exploits has something to do with UAC. > They all expect to be run through an admin powershell/command line. Admin rights will be acquired by using exploits (of which there are many) or by using built-in tools found in the Windows system directory, for example Wscript.exe. No internet connection required. No fetching of external files. You have no say in whether you can allow it to run or not. > you will get a warning before the script is able to gain administrative access. False. You wouldn't even know. Not a visible commandline window to be seen. It's all silent. A well-developed exploit will delete most of it's traces. This is all pretty basic knowledge in the sec research community. Test it and verify it for yourself. I test hardening configurations using a Windows VM.
hyperman1 5y ago
It's victim blaming in the same way the partner of an abusive spouse gets told to just leave the spouse. Yes, partner is a victim, but there is a clear action to end the abuse.

isoprophlex 5y ago

Yeah I fully agree... incidentally I started a new job april 1st, my employer provided me with a windows laptop. That's why I had this knowledge ready. First windows experience in many years, it's been equally gross and amusing.

rejectfinite 5y ago
>it's been equally gross and amusing. How? A domain joined Windows laptop should have GPOs to remove the ads and shit also SCCM/Intune software center / company portal to install the apps you need.
- Godel_unicode 5y ago
  You're giving the average IT department far, far too much credit.
  - rejectfinite 5y ago
    I work in one that does this so maybe? Having some kind of Windows 10 "golden image" with SCCM/Intune/PDQ for apps is fairly standard.
- isoprophlex 5y ago
  Gross because the lock screen insists on serving me dumb ass photos with """interesting""" factoids, in an attempt to ??? Gross because I clicked somewhere by accident and the bottom right of my screen was filled with news snippets and some MS ads. Hilarious because I wanted to change the (default ?) UI scaling from 150 to 100%; there was no obvious way to just type "scaling" somewhere and get to the point, instead I navigated three layers deep through the settings panel, which had three different visual design styles. I read all the windows design snark on HN, without really knowing what is what... turns out it REALLY is as bad as people make it out to be, haha.
  - alar44 5y ago
    You can change your lock screen to whatever you want. I don't care what system I'm on, if I wanted to change display settings, I wouldn't search for scaling, I'd search for display settings. I'm failing to see anything of substance here other than "I didn't immediately know how to do something."

zionic 5y ago

I agree, but I only have windows machines as exclusive gaming boxes. No password on login, no web browsing period, no access to NAS/media/files, no cloud access etc. just has windows and steam/various launchers and peripheral software. I’m are things like proton exist, but there are a million issues with gaming on Linux that I don’t feel like writing a book about in the comment section. Maybe in a few more years…

nerdponx 5y ago
It's for the better, I think. Everybody gets so concerned about privacy and then gives Valve a blank check with the Steam launcher. I almost prefer having it on an isolated system, along with the various other game launchers. I also wish I didn't have to use it to buy games, but it seems like any/most PC games are available only through Steam, or some equivalently distasteful proprietary launcher/platform/portal thing.
- can16358p 5y ago
  I think it's about company image. Microsoft has a long standing reputation for bundling crap and bloat its OS, while doing whatever-telemetry and harder to catch as the author of the OS itself. Valve and Steam has a much better reputation for now, and is respected by many players. I'm not saying it's perfect but at least it's loved by players whereas Microsoft/Windows is more into the hated category, for good well-deserved reasons.
- forgotpwd16 5y ago
  You can run that stuff if on Windows in Sandboxie or if on Linux containerized. For example I run Steam in an LXD container.

rejectfinite 5y ago

I have games and other software that wont run or wont run as well on Linux. Work is also done on a domain joined Windows laptop. This "just switch to linux lol" is so dumb.

bamboozled 5y ago
For games, why not just have a console and a Mac for everything else? I can't believe there is any good reason for people to run Windows on their PC in 2022?
- rejectfinite 5y ago
  Different games. Games like FF7R, GTA, anmy RPG etc, sure I play on playstation. Good luck playing CSGO, Valorant, Leauge of Legends and my already massive Steam library on PS4 lol Why would you suggest this as a "solution" I run Windows 10 as it runs the software I want. Im on an install from 2015 when it came out and after chaning the default browser, desktop background, some settings customization, its fine. I can also use my own desktop hardware. I have a i7 4790k, 32GB RAM and a 1070ti 3x 1440p monitors. Why should I get a Mac?
- DanHulton 5y ago
  You must not play many games. There are a variety of games for PC that just aren't on console. If you want to play them, you do not have any alternative. There are a variety of games where you need a mouse, or have grown up using a mouse, and switching to constroller is like asking someone who runs marathons to switch to sack racing. This is not an alternative on consoles. Games are frequently cheaper on PC. MUCH cheaper. If you're on a budget, it's hard to justify. Not all multiplayer games are cross-system compatible, and many never will be. If your friends play on PC, you can't switch to console without agreeing to never play with them again. Maybe you'll be the one to start the exodus if you try, but maybe not. That's a lot to ask of people, to buy a new console, rebuy all their old games, and then be okay with all the above-mentioned issues, including the network effect of your friends' friends who all play on PC, etc. In short, there are quite a number of valid reasons to run Windows on your PC, especially if you play games.

lostgame 5y ago

I’m so tired of hearing this ‘just switch to Linux’ bullshit. If you are privileged enough to be in the extreme minority who can do that - you probably already have. I know you know this - but people need proprietary software, and they need to not guess if it might possibly work through some interpretative layer like WINE. May I remind you a lot of people pay for software they need to use, and sometimes need support or updates that they certainly won’t be guaranteed if they are trying to run software on unsupported systems. If you are somehow privileged enough to not be in that group, you are an extreme - extreme - outlier, and good for you, but don’t bury your head in the sand and forget that for 99% of people, that’s obviously not a possibility - whatsoever - including at least 90% of the workforce who gets handed a laptop and use whatever they have to use. It’s just so irritating to constantly hear this ‘just go to Linux’ bullshit when it’s not like Linux users aren’t aware that it can’t work for the majority of people. If I switch to Linux, I lose Photoshop, Logic Pro, Final Cut Pro, Unity, as well as a handful of plug-ins. That’s $1k plus of software I have paid for and rely on, that I instantly lose access to?! The value loss upon switching to Linux - alone - for most people, who have invested into software ecosystems that can’t be replicated in Linux alone would be astounding. It’s not even the money spent on software, either - it’s the time invested in learning it. I know people who run Linux know this - I wonder why they seem to have forgotten.

Zababa 5y ago
People in the workforce that get handed over a laptop with Windows usually don't have any control on it due to company policies, so this is a non-argument. For the rest, I doubt 99% of people actually "need" Windows. 50%? Probably, possibly. Also, proprietary software has nothing to do with Linux or not Linux, there is proprietary software that's not Windows only. I also don't think any of this is about privilge, it's about control. If you want control, you have to work for it. That's how everything works in life. People will always try to take away from you control. Switching to Linux may take work, but it will give you control. Learning a bit more Windows (like the operations mentionned earlier, the registery) will probably be easier and give you less. Everyone can then adjust things depending on how much control they want and time/energy they have.
- 5y ago