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BBC: Killings in Bucha are deliberate massacre – Ukraine

164 points by rendall 5y ago

juanani 5y ago
[dead]
ajuc 5y ago
Russia is basically nazi germany with nukes. It's fucking frustrating.
- belter 5y ago
  If I would be US President, my first measure on day 1, would be to create a Manhattan Level top secret research program of 10 to 15 years. Budget of 50 to 100 Billion, solely dedicated to neutralize Nuclear Weapons. Nothing has higher importance. "Neutrino beam could neutralise nuclear bombs": https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3734-neutrino-beam-could-neutralise-nuclear-bombs/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3734-neutrino-beam-co...
  - m_ke 5y ago
    Better bet would be an international new deal program to invest in renewable energy, which could help us avoid a recession, save us from being dependent on fossil fuel states and help us deal with climate change, all in one shot.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    Doesn't this just add more pressure to compete since it tips the balance of MAD? EDIT: removed uncited rumor
    - belter 5y ago
      That is the argument not to do it. There are also arguments against the MAD strategy for example the assumption of a perfectly rational adversary. Not sure if can be applied here or adversaries like North Korea. See "MAD -Criticism": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction#Cri... I would argue for the top secret program.
    - LinuxBender 5y ago
      I hesitate to add an opinion on this as I know that multiple generations have been conditioned to believe in MAD. I believe MAD does apply to NATO nations and for the most part would reduce the probability that NATO countries might nuke one another. I do not however believe that Russian politicians and military recognize this concept beyond its application to NATO meaning that they would hope we believe in it. There isn't one document I can point to but rather all of their political and war history suggests they would believe a nuclear war can be won and they don't really care if half their population were wiped out. The political elites can hide in bunkers deep under ground for a very long time. They have been preparing for this since at least WWII. Add to this the evolution of smaller, faster more efficient tactical nuclear weapons and HANES EMP weapons would bolster their confidence in winning. I don't really know what winning means given they would be economically destroyed and the surviving civilian population would be starving and sick. I am just looking at this through Russian history tinted glasses.
  - Proven 5y ago
  - blub 5y ago
    Telling that you’d give that top priority as opposed to say quality medical care for everyone, schools, taking care of the homeless, etc.
    - ajuc 5y ago
      Let's imagine a world in which nazi Germany occupied whole Europe and there was no WW2. Holocaust was finished. Jews, Slavs, Roma people, Muslims. Every "subhuman" minority gone. 50 years of 3rd Reich. But UK got better medical care and education.
      - blub 5y ago
        I understand that you're really passionate about Nazi Germany and are probably disappointed that the only thing which is like Nazi Germany continues to be Nazi Germany even in 2022. Nevertheless. Ukraine is very special and there’s no proof whatsoever that Russia is interested in conquering or attacking any EU/NATO countries. And they’ve also shown that they probably couldn’t manage it even without NATO or the nuclear deterrent.
        ajuc 5y ago
        > Ukraine is very special and there’s no proof whatsoever that Russia is interested in conquering or attacking any EU/NATO countries. Russia wants NATO to be back into 1997 borders. Exactly because it wants to get EE countries back into its sphere of influence. If NATO allows this to happen (and there were people arguing for it) - Russia would blackmail these countries to become Russian vassals. And if they don't want to - it would invade them. Russia already invaded Baltic states in 1991. Chechnya in 1994 and 1999. Georgia in 2008. Ukraine in 2014 and now. It's not exactly a secret. Putin and his ideologues (Dugin for example) wrote about the need to "recreate Russian empire". The only reason they don't is because USA remains active in Europe and NATO remains a credible defensive alliance. But it's not guaranteed forever. There are political forces in US and the rest of NATO that consider it too costly.
        NicoJuicy 5y ago
  - russellbeattie 5y ago
    How do you know it hasn't been? I'm sure it has. So much money on defense makes it easy to fund massive projects without notice. What will be hysterical is in fifty years when it all becomes unclassified after the new weapon has to be used outing its existence and we all learn that there was a deep state after all and they hid the existence of the weapon from Trump. I'll be long dead, but I would have enjoyed it immensely. What would be even better is an announcement like, "The US has voluntarily destroyed all of its nuclear weapons and generators and welcomes the world to verify there is no longer any massively fisionable matter anywhere in the country. Also, along with this announcement we have constructed a 600 mile long accelerator which can instantly detect and detonate any such material found anywhere in the world, instantly. Everyone's nuclear weapons are now their own worst nightmare and we encourage all countries to rid themselves of such weapons as quickly as possible. Starting with you, Russia." Can you imagine?
    - belter 5y ago
      It would be a great Netflix series...but in real life I think would have to be a combination of - Neutrino accelerators. - EMP weapons. - Human Engineering. - Espionage. - Real time tracking 24/7 of the location of government officials that could give such order. - A type of SEAL Team 6 team ready to go anywhere and disable them. - Most important you need an EMP solution to disable Nuclear submarines.
      - russellbeattie 5y ago
        I was thinking about how the detection system would work. We'd send up a bunch of satellites with specific detectors on them, then we send out a burst of neutrinos which will ring all the dense fissionable material like a bell. The satellites then record the pinpoint location of where any of it is anywhere on the planet. That could be the beginning of the novel/Netflix series/pre-announcement mystery as all the scientists in the world notice something just happened, but aren't sure what for a while... I also love the idea of doing it all as a hoax. Like a bluff. We mock up fake demos and then convince the entire world we have this power to detonate any nuke anywhere as if we owned it... And say, "We really don't want to have to demonstrate it for real, but if we have to." And the world voluntarily disarms...
- troon-lover 5y ago
- photochemsyn 5y ago
  Hyperbole and pro-war propaganda are the norm for this topic, but historical accuracy does matter. Russia is the aggressor in the Ukraine war, but if Russia was 'Nazi Germany' they'd be building forced-labor concentration camps all across Ukraine, as Nazi Germany did in Poland, prior to the murder of millions of people in those camps. Similar hyperbole is trotted out in every conflict. The Saudis are Nazis to the Yemeni people, the Israelis are Nazis to the Palestinian people, so we should have a mass boycott and divestment not just from Russia, but from Saudi Arabia and Israel as well. Of course this isn't going to happen, and thus the moral authority to condemn Russia's aggression doesn't actually exist for the United States (see Iraq as well). As far as nukes, we'd be back in the large-scale tank battles of WWII without nukes. They generally have a stabilizing influence as the architects of wars are notably reluctant to place themselves on the firing line; sending kids off to die somewhere else is not a problem for them, but facing the nuclear annihilation of their own home is another matter.
  - mlyle 5y ago
    > building forced-labor concentration camps all across Ukraine, as Nazi Germany did in Poland There's reports of Russia extracting hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians to camps within Russian borders. We don't know the exact scale or nature of these camps yet. > Of course this isn't going to happen, and thus the moral authority to condemn Russia's aggression Ah, whataboutism. We're not doing shit about one terrible situation, so we shouldn't do shit about any terrible situation.
    - netsharc 5y ago
      OP's comment is weird, it's like "Only when you've passed this threshold can you be compared to Nazi Germany.". Maybe they should also have uniforms designed by Hugo Boss to qualify? This article has 3 entries from 3 teenagers, the last one is from a teenager of a Pro-Russian family who have been relocated to Russia. He's writing they've been rescued from the "tyranny": https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/apr/01/who-will-return-my-stolen-life-to-me-the-teenagers-who-fled-mariupol-ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/apr/01/w...
    - 5y ago
- aivisol 5y ago
  My hope is that in the light of Russian actions in Ukraine, the western world will review its attitude towards Russian/Soviet role in the context of WW2. So far the blame on starting WW2 was put almost solely on Nazi Germany, and painting Soviets almost as victims only. That is understandable, since they happened to be on the winners side, and therefore could write the history as they seem to fit for them. It is often forgotten that Soviets and Nazis agreed to divide Europe when they signed Molotov-Ribbentrop pact on August 23, 1939 [1], after which Nazis promptly invaded Poland a week later [2] and Soviets did so just weeks weeks after that. [3]. And while Germany was busy waging war on its western front [4], Soviets went on attacking Finland [5] and occupying Baltics [6]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pac... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Front_(World_War_II) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Front_(World_War_II) [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_the_Baltic_states_(1940) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_the_Balti...
  - gruez 5y ago
    >My hope is that in the light of Russian actions in Ukraine, the western world will review its attitude towards Russian/Soviet role in the context of WW2 I don't know about you, but this gives me massive "We've always been at war with Eastasia" vibes. We really shouldn't be normalizing "reviews" of our attitude towards other countries in the context of history, based on whatever is politically expedient today.
    - eveningcoffee 5y ago
      Illusion of winning WWII or in Russia Great Patriotic War is the main influence behind these inhuman crimes. They believe that because they won Nazis, they can't be the bad guys ever and all they do is morally right.
    - dralley 5y ago
kofejnik 5y ago
At this point, anyone doing business with Russia becomes complicit in their crimes
- aaomidi 5y ago
  Right but we're beyond that point since those companies also do business in the US. At the end of the day we need to accept that this is just how superpowers act. They go in, kill millions, and nothing ever changes.
  - kofejnik 5y ago
    whataboutism at its worst
    - aaomidi 5y ago
      Sure if I was using this to excuse Russia. A fallacy fallacy doesn't really get you anywhere. Businesses are already complicit with murder considering majority of them operate in the US. What about this basic fact makes you uncomfortable?
      - Nasrudith 5y ago
        You literally said to just accept it as something superpowers do. How is saying not to judge them anything but excusing Russia?
        aaomidi 5y ago
        That is a call to action that __we need to get rid of super powers__.
- gruez 5y ago
  Including all the western european countries still buying gas from russia?
melling 5y ago
Do people flag these stories or are they programmatically kept off the front page. It’s strange that these stories never make it anywhere near the top.
- 5wd 5y ago
  This is on the front page at the top.
  - drewg123 5y ago
    Its only in "new" for me..
- BrianOnHN 5y ago
  Programmatic or manual suppression of keywords and/or domains. Look at the points, time and comments count of the current front page when compared to this which is currently on the second page. This: 33. BBC: Killings in Bucha are deliberate massacre – Ukraine (bbc.co.uk) 34 points by rendall 57 minutes ago | unvote | flag | hide | 5 comments Others: 3. Why to Care About Privacy After Years of Sharing Data (thenewoil.org) 28 points by Bright_Machine 1 hour ago | flag | hide | 8 comments 5. Rethinking Visual Programming with Go (divan.dev) 40 points by techplex 3 hours ago | flag | hide | 15 comments 6. Book Review: The Programmer's Brain (shkspr.mobi) 55 points by edent 3 hours ago | flag | hide | 11 comments 8. Podcast-conversations with YC founders whose startups failed (spotify.com) 26 points by thinkwithlucie 3 hours ago | flag | hide | 2 comments 11. The Science of Production (constructionphysics.substack.com) 9 points by sebg 1 hour ago | flag | hide | discuss
- blub 5y ago
  The level of discourse is squarely at “Russia is Nazi Germany with nukes” - written without correct capitalization. In general I’ve seen a handful of insightful comments on the Russia-Ukraine war, most comments are various levels of moral outrage or repeat the mainstream story without much critical thought.
  - giraffe_lady 5y ago
trasz 5y ago
For a larger context: https://www.akweb.de/politik/putin-war-in-ukraine-a-fascist-regime-looms-in-russia/ https://www.akweb.de/politik/putin-war-in-ukraine-a-fascist-...
mancerayder 5y ago
How is the Russian state so effectively able to hide these types of things from its population? An independent study showed that Putin's approval rating went up, not down, and it's in the 70's. Russians believe they're fighting fascism, that Ukrainians are Nazis, and that they're welcomed as liberators. But bodybags don't lie, and there's hundreds or maybe thousands of videos that show the opposite of the above narrative. How is Russia able to withstand that? Is it cultural ? Or are we the ones not getting the full picture here?
- sidibe 5y ago
  They don't try that hard to hide it. Russia had an open internet until this month and still foreigners can participate in unblocked social networks (unlike China where not only everything has been blocked for over a decade but they make it very difficult for foreigners to participate or even read discussions). Russian propaganda works by assaulting credibility in general. Just imagine if every network and authority in the country is constantly calling everything "fake news" then basically people decide nothing anyone says is that believable, and they are free to believe whatever they want or what makes them feel right.
- oliwarner 5y ago
  One factor might be the exodus of people with internationally facing jobs, those with contact on the outside. By some accounts this is getting into hundreds of thousands of workers and their families.
- eveningcoffee 5y ago
  Russian propaganda right now (also notice how Kyiv is on lower case intentionally): Why the “Buchan Massacre” is fake Ukraine is spreading a new “crime against humanity”. Entering the cities of the kyiv region, which the Russian troops abandoned as part of the regroupment, the nationalists of the terbats suddenly found the streets littered with the corpses of civilians. Traces of torture, tied hands, scarlet blood: images of the city of Bucha shake the soul. Ukrainian propaganda paints a terrible picture of the “Russian occupation”, under which real sadists intimidated the locals. Here it is, Ukrainian Srebrenica. By analogy with the “massacre” of Bosnian Muslims in Yugoslavia, of which the Serbs were accused. Although his version, which was significantly inferior in scale to the official one, no one took it into account. I will now explain why Srebrenica in Bucha is a lie. ... --------------------- I did not put link intentionally.
ne38 5y ago
aizen89 5y ago
byt1e 5y ago
Stop listening to ukrainian propaganda guys.
- belter 5y ago
  Yes. They must be getting better and better at it... \s "The Ukrainian mother who had to bury her own son" https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60977889 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60977889
narrator 5y ago
Has the BBC ever lied to support the political objectives of the British Government? Just saying, it's a war, Britain and the rest of NATO are sending very advanced weapons to Ukraine and there are extremely big stakes here, so I wouldn't necessarily fault them for doing their patriotic duty and lying their asses off, or applying the lightest of all fact checks to encourage people to hate the Russians. It's all in our national best interest in the long run for Russia to lose this war, and if thinking Russia is "Nazi Germany with nukes", instead of being run by "Uncle Joe" and Beria being the head of the Russian equivalent of the FBI, as the March 29 1943 Life Magazine puff piece on Stalin's Regime put it, then great.[3] Btw, if you can get ahold of it, this Life Magazine is a marvel of absurdly positively spun propaganda. Recently, we had the Nayirah Testimony[1] that was widely reported as true prior to the first gulf war, and the well known weapons of mass destruction present in Iraq testimony before the second one. There was also the Dr Rola testimony that later turned out to be fake that was widely reported during the Syrian civil war[2]. Anyway, it is possible to want Russia to lose this war and simultaneously be aware that one's own government has a good reason to, and perhaps is lying and exaggerating for war propaganda purposes. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony [2]https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Dr_Rola https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Dr_Rola [3]https://books.google.com.vn/books/content?id=A1AEAAAAMBAJ&hl=vi&pg=PA40&img=1&zoom=3&sig=ACfU3U3KDKmc1lcuDvvZeIdsxe-HjHBS6g&w=1280 https://books.google.com.vn/books/content?id=A1AEAAAAMBAJ&hl...
- silexia 5y ago
  Have the Russians ever lied[1] to the public employing fake accounts to pretend to be someone else? [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/infamous-russian-troll-farm-appears-to-be-source-of-anti-ukraine-propaganda https://www.propublica.org/article/infamous-russian-troll-fa...
- csee 5y ago
  This isn't like [1] due to multiple independent lines of corroborating evidence, including multiple eye-witness accounts, photographic evidence, and satellite imagery from two weeks ago that corroborates this evidence. It is fine to reserve judgement where there is no good evidence, but that's not what you're doing by comparing it to [1]. The null should be that the Kremlin is lying, especially in the context of fairly solid lines of evidence, and given their recent history of lying about everything and denying everything, even that which we can observe with our eyes (e.g. Lavrov's "We are not invading Ukraine" -- said in March).

164 points by rendall 5y ago

juanani 5y ago

[dead]

ajuc 5y ago

Russia is basically nazi germany with nukes. It's fucking frustrating.

belter 5y ago
If I would be US President, my first measure on day 1, would be to create a Manhattan Level top secret research program of 10 to 15 years. Budget of 50 to 100 Billion, solely dedicated to neutralize Nuclear Weapons. Nothing has higher importance. "Neutrino beam could neutralise nuclear bombs": https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3734-neutrino-beam-could-neutralise-nuclear-bombs/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3734-neutrino-beam-co...
- m_ke 5y ago
  Better bet would be an international new deal program to invest in renewable energy, which could help us avoid a recession, save us from being dependent on fossil fuel states and help us deal with climate change, all in one shot.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  Doesn't this just add more pressure to compete since it tips the balance of MAD? EDIT: removed uncited rumor
  - belter 5y ago
    That is the argument not to do it. There are also arguments against the MAD strategy for example the assumption of a perfectly rational adversary. Not sure if can be applied here or adversaries like North Korea. See "MAD -Criticism": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction#Cri... I would argue for the top secret program.
  - LinuxBender 5y ago
    I hesitate to add an opinion on this as I know that multiple generations have been conditioned to believe in MAD. I believe MAD does apply to NATO nations and for the most part would reduce the probability that NATO countries might nuke one another. I do not however believe that Russian politicians and military recognize this concept beyond its application to NATO meaning that they would hope we believe in it. There isn't one document I can point to but rather all of their political and war history suggests they would believe a nuclear war can be won and they don't really care if half their population were wiped out. The political elites can hide in bunkers deep under ground for a very long time. They have been preparing for this since at least WWII. Add to this the evolution of smaller, faster more efficient tactical nuclear weapons and HANES EMP weapons would bolster their confidence in winning. I don't really know what winning means given they would be economically destroyed and the surviving civilian population would be starving and sick. I am just looking at this through Russian history tinted glasses.
- Proven 5y ago
- blub 5y ago
  Telling that you’d give that top priority as opposed to say quality medical care for everyone, schools, taking care of the homeless, etc.
  - ajuc 5y ago
    Let's imagine a world in which nazi Germany occupied whole Europe and there was no WW2. Holocaust was finished. Jews, Slavs, Roma people, Muslims. Every "subhuman" minority gone. 50 years of 3rd Reich. But UK got better medical care and education.
    - blub 5y ago
      I understand that you're really passionate about Nazi Germany and are probably disappointed that the only thing which is like Nazi Germany continues to be Nazi Germany even in 2022. Nevertheless. Ukraine is very special and there’s no proof whatsoever that Russia is interested in conquering or attacking any EU/NATO countries. And they’ve also shown that they probably couldn’t manage it even without NATO or the nuclear deterrent.
      - ajuc 5y ago
        > Ukraine is very special and there’s no proof whatsoever that Russia is interested in conquering or attacking any EU/NATO countries. Russia wants NATO to be back into 1997 borders. Exactly because it wants to get EE countries back into its sphere of influence. If NATO allows this to happen (and there were people arguing for it) - Russia would blackmail these countries to become Russian vassals. And if they don't want to - it would invade them. Russia already invaded Baltic states in 1991. Chechnya in 1994 and 1999. Georgia in 2008. Ukraine in 2014 and now. It's not exactly a secret. Putin and his ideologues (Dugin for example) wrote about the need to "recreate Russian empire". The only reason they don't is because USA remains active in Europe and NATO remains a credible defensive alliance. But it's not guaranteed forever. There are political forces in US and the rest of NATO that consider it too costly.
        NicoJuicy 5y ago
- russellbeattie 5y ago
  How do you know it hasn't been? I'm sure it has. So much money on defense makes it easy to fund massive projects without notice. What will be hysterical is in fifty years when it all becomes unclassified after the new weapon has to be used outing its existence and we all learn that there was a deep state after all and they hid the existence of the weapon from Trump. I'll be long dead, but I would have enjoyed it immensely. What would be even better is an announcement like, "The US has voluntarily destroyed all of its nuclear weapons and generators and welcomes the world to verify there is no longer any massively fisionable matter anywhere in the country. Also, along with this announcement we have constructed a 600 mile long accelerator which can instantly detect and detonate any such material found anywhere in the world, instantly. Everyone's nuclear weapons are now their own worst nightmare and we encourage all countries to rid themselves of such weapons as quickly as possible. Starting with you, Russia." Can you imagine?
  - belter 5y ago
    It would be a great Netflix series...but in real life I think would have to be a combination of - Neutrino accelerators. - EMP weapons. - Human Engineering. - Espionage. - Real time tracking 24/7 of the location of government officials that could give such order. - A type of SEAL Team 6 team ready to go anywhere and disable them. - Most important you need an EMP solution to disable Nuclear submarines.
    - russellbeattie 5y ago
      I was thinking about how the detection system would work. We'd send up a bunch of satellites with specific detectors on them, then we send out a burst of neutrinos which will ring all the dense fissionable material like a bell. The satellites then record the pinpoint location of where any of it is anywhere on the planet. That could be the beginning of the novel/Netflix series/pre-announcement mystery as all the scientists in the world notice something just happened, but aren't sure what for a while... I also love the idea of doing it all as a hoax. Like a bluff. We mock up fake demos and then convince the entire world we have this power to detonate any nuke anywhere as if we owned it... And say, "We really don't want to have to demonstrate it for real, but if we have to." And the world voluntarily disarms...
troon-lover 5y ago
photochemsyn 5y ago
Hyperbole and pro-war propaganda are the norm for this topic, but historical accuracy does matter. Russia is the aggressor in the Ukraine war, but if Russia was 'Nazi Germany' they'd be building forced-labor concentration camps all across Ukraine, as Nazi Germany did in Poland, prior to the murder of millions of people in those camps. Similar hyperbole is trotted out in every conflict. The Saudis are Nazis to the Yemeni people, the Israelis are Nazis to the Palestinian people, so we should have a mass boycott and divestment not just from Russia, but from Saudi Arabia and Israel as well. Of course this isn't going to happen, and thus the moral authority to condemn Russia's aggression doesn't actually exist for the United States (see Iraq as well). As far as nukes, we'd be back in the large-scale tank battles of WWII without nukes. They generally have a stabilizing influence as the architects of wars are notably reluctant to place themselves on the firing line; sending kids off to die somewhere else is not a problem for them, but facing the nuclear annihilation of their own home is another matter.
- mlyle 5y ago
  > building forced-labor concentration camps all across Ukraine, as Nazi Germany did in Poland There's reports of Russia extracting hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians to camps within Russian borders. We don't know the exact scale or nature of these camps yet. > Of course this isn't going to happen, and thus the moral authority to condemn Russia's aggression Ah, whataboutism. We're not doing shit about one terrible situation, so we shouldn't do shit about any terrible situation.
  - netsharc 5y ago
    OP's comment is weird, it's like "Only when you've passed this threshold can you be compared to Nazi Germany.". Maybe they should also have uniforms designed by Hugo Boss to qualify? This article has 3 entries from 3 teenagers, the last one is from a teenager of a Pro-Russian family who have been relocated to Russia. He's writing they've been rescued from the "tyranny": https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/apr/01/who-will-return-my-stolen-life-to-me-the-teenagers-who-fled-mariupol-ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/apr/01/w...
  - 5y ago
aivisol 5y ago
My hope is that in the light of Russian actions in Ukraine, the western world will review its attitude towards Russian/Soviet role in the context of WW2. So far the blame on starting WW2 was put almost solely on Nazi Germany, and painting Soviets almost as victims only. That is understandable, since they happened to be on the winners side, and therefore could write the history as they seem to fit for them. It is often forgotten that Soviets and Nazis agreed to divide Europe when they signed Molotov-Ribbentrop pact on August 23, 1939 [1], after which Nazis promptly invaded Poland a week later [2] and Soviets did so just weeks weeks after that. [3]. And while Germany was busy waging war on its western front [4], Soviets went on attacking Finland [5] and occupying Baltics [6]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pac... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Front_(World_War_II) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Front_(World_War_II) [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_the_Baltic_states_(1940) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_the_Balti...
- gruez 5y ago
  >My hope is that in the light of Russian actions in Ukraine, the western world will review its attitude towards Russian/Soviet role in the context of WW2 I don't know about you, but this gives me massive "We've always been at war with Eastasia" vibes. We really shouldn't be normalizing "reviews" of our attitude towards other countries in the context of history, based on whatever is politically expedient today.
  - eveningcoffee 5y ago
    Illusion of winning WWII or in Russia Great Patriotic War is the main influence behind these inhuman crimes. They believe that because they won Nazis, they can't be the bad guys ever and all they do is morally right.
  - dralley 5y ago

kofejnik 5y ago

At this point, anyone doing business with Russia becomes complicit in their crimes

aaomidi 5y ago
Right but we're beyond that point since those companies also do business in the US. At the end of the day we need to accept that this is just how superpowers act. They go in, kill millions, and nothing ever changes.
- kofejnik 5y ago
  whataboutism at its worst
  - aaomidi 5y ago
    Sure if I was using this to excuse Russia. A fallacy fallacy doesn't really get you anywhere. Businesses are already complicit with murder considering majority of them operate in the US. What about this basic fact makes you uncomfortable?
    - Nasrudith 5y ago
      You literally said to just accept it as something superpowers do. How is saying not to judge them anything but excusing Russia?
      - aaomidi 5y ago
        That is a call to action that __we need to get rid of super powers__.
gruez 5y ago
Including all the western european countries still buying gas from russia?

melling 5y ago

Do people flag these stories or are they programmatically kept off the front page. It’s strange that these stories never make it anywhere near the top.

5wd 5y ago
This is on the front page at the top.
- drewg123 5y ago
  Its only in "new" for me..
BrianOnHN 5y ago
Programmatic or manual suppression of keywords and/or domains. Look at the points, time and comments count of the current front page when compared to this which is currently on the second page. This: 33. BBC: Killings in Bucha are deliberate massacre – Ukraine (bbc.co.uk) 34 points by rendall 57 minutes ago | unvote | flag | hide | 5 comments Others: 3. Why to Care About Privacy After Years of Sharing Data (thenewoil.org) 28 points by Bright_Machine 1 hour ago | flag | hide | 8 comments 5. Rethinking Visual Programming with Go (divan.dev) 40 points by techplex 3 hours ago | flag | hide | 15 comments 6. Book Review: The Programmer's Brain (shkspr.mobi) 55 points by edent 3 hours ago | flag | hide | 11 comments 8. Podcast-conversations with YC founders whose startups failed (spotify.com) 26 points by thinkwithlucie 3 hours ago | flag | hide | 2 comments 11. The Science of Production (constructionphysics.substack.com) 9 points by sebg 1 hour ago | flag | hide | discuss
blub 5y ago
The level of discourse is squarely at “Russia is Nazi Germany with nukes” - written without correct capitalization. In general I’ve seen a handful of insightful comments on the Russia-Ukraine war, most comments are various levels of moral outrage or repeat the mainstream story without much critical thought.
- giraffe_lady 5y ago

trasz 5y ago

For a larger context: https://www.akweb.de/politik/putin-war-in-ukraine-a-fascist-regime-looms-in-russia/ https://www.akweb.de/politik/putin-war-in-ukraine-a-fascist-...

mancerayder 5y ago

How is the Russian state so effectively able to hide these types of things from its population? An independent study showed that Putin's approval rating went up, not down, and it's in the 70's. Russians believe they're fighting fascism, that Ukrainians are Nazis, and that they're welcomed as liberators. But bodybags don't lie, and there's hundreds or maybe thousands of videos that show the opposite of the above narrative. How is Russia able to withstand that? Is it cultural ? Or are we the ones not getting the full picture here?

sidibe 5y ago
They don't try that hard to hide it. Russia had an open internet until this month and still foreigners can participate in unblocked social networks (unlike China where not only everything has been blocked for over a decade but they make it very difficult for foreigners to participate or even read discussions). Russian propaganda works by assaulting credibility in general. Just imagine if every network and authority in the country is constantly calling everything "fake news" then basically people decide nothing anyone says is that believable, and they are free to believe whatever they want or what makes them feel right.
oliwarner 5y ago
One factor might be the exodus of people with internationally facing jobs, those with contact on the outside. By some accounts this is getting into hundreds of thousands of workers and their families.
eveningcoffee 5y ago
Russian propaganda right now (also notice how Kyiv is on lower case intentionally): Why the “Buchan Massacre” is fake Ukraine is spreading a new “crime against humanity”. Entering the cities of the kyiv region, which the Russian troops abandoned as part of the regroupment, the nationalists of the terbats suddenly found the streets littered with the corpses of civilians. Traces of torture, tied hands, scarlet blood: images of the city of Bucha shake the soul. Ukrainian propaganda paints a terrible picture of the “Russian occupation”, under which real sadists intimidated the locals. Here it is, Ukrainian Srebrenica. By analogy with the “massacre” of Bosnian Muslims in Yugoslavia, of which the Serbs were accused. Although his version, which was significantly inferior in scale to the official one, no one took it into account. I will now explain why Srebrenica in Bucha is a lie. ... --------------------- I did not put link intentionally.

ne38 5y ago

aizen89 5y ago

byt1e 5y ago

Stop listening to ukrainian propaganda guys.

belter 5y ago
Yes. They must be getting better and better at it... \s "The Ukrainian mother who had to bury her own son" https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60977889 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60977889

narrator 5y ago

Has the BBC ever lied to support the political objectives of the British Government? Just saying, it's a war, Britain and the rest of NATO are sending very advanced weapons to Ukraine and there are extremely big stakes here, so I wouldn't necessarily fault them for doing their patriotic duty and lying their asses off, or applying the lightest of all fact checks to encourage people to hate the Russians. It's all in our national best interest in the long run for Russia to lose this war, and if thinking Russia is "Nazi Germany with nukes", instead of being run by "Uncle Joe" and Beria being the head of the Russian equivalent of the FBI, as the March 29 1943 Life Magazine puff piece on Stalin's Regime put it, then great.[3] Btw, if you can get ahold of it, this Life Magazine is a marvel of absurdly positively spun propaganda. Recently, we had the Nayirah Testimony[1] that was widely reported as true prior to the first gulf war, and the well known weapons of mass destruction present in Iraq testimony before the second one. There was also the Dr Rola testimony that later turned out to be fake that was widely reported during the Syrian civil war[2]. Anyway, it is possible to want Russia to lose this war and simultaneously be aware that one's own government has a good reason to, and perhaps is lying and exaggerating for war propaganda purposes. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony [2]https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Dr_Rola https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Dr_Rola [3]https://books.google.com.vn/books/content?id=A1AEAAAAMBAJ&hl=vi&pg=PA40&img=1&zoom=3&sig=ACfU3U3KDKmc1lcuDvvZeIdsxe-HjHBS6g&w=1280 https://books.google.com.vn/books/content?id=A1AEAAAAMBAJ&hl...

silexia 5y ago
Have the Russians ever lied[1] to the public employing fake accounts to pretend to be someone else? [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/infamous-russian-troll-farm-appears-to-be-source-of-anti-ukraine-propaganda https://www.propublica.org/article/infamous-russian-troll-fa...
csee 5y ago
This isn't like [1] due to multiple independent lines of corroborating evidence, including multiple eye-witness accounts, photographic evidence, and satellite imagery from two weeks ago that corroborates this evidence. It is fine to reserve judgement where there is no good evidence, but that's not what you're doing by comparing it to [1]. The null should be that the Kremlin is lying, especially in the context of fairly solid lines of evidence, and given their recent history of lying about everything and denying everything, even that which we can observe with our eyes (e.g. Lavrov's "We are not invading Ukraine" -- said in March).